Is the forum getting a little bland lately? We used to have good discussions here.

I'm surprised that this topic hasn't been brought up here. (That I know of)


I would like to try to start a conversation here if I may. A break from what used to be the OT forum to what is now the joke and chain game forum.


How do you feel about Terri Schiavo? Should she live or die?


And if artificial life support was the the only thing left to keep you alive would you want to be kept alive or die naturally?

Visit the Basement

I don't consider a feeding tube in someone who can eat on their own to be artificial life support.

I also don't consider denying her food a way of letting nature take its course. You can deny anyone food and water and they'll die. They did not simply pull her feeding tube, they banned her food and water.

Denying her therapy to see if she can get any better tells me exactly where her husband's head is at. He wants her dead. I can guess for what reason, none of the guesses are good.

He may be her husband but her family is also her family. He should not have the only say in the decision since she did not have a living will and she did not make her wishes known to people other than him and especially since an old girlfriend of his testified in court that he was lying about her wishes.

I'm all for euthanasia, assisted suicide. I'm even OK with healthy people having the right to off themselves.
But starving someone to death who does not have a say in the matter is totally out of line. At least shoot her up with an overdose of something.

But now that she's been without water for so long it really doesn't matter. If she wasn't ireparably brain damaged before, she probably is by now.
But we can try to stop this from happening to someone in the future.
I say having a verbal "living will" with one person is not good enough, hell, even in this state you need three witnesses to have a written living will.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Based upon what I've read, it's my opinion that she was still somewhat mentally active though with severely impacted physical capacity such as a stroke victim. How clear her brain could still think, no one really knows.

And yes, "verbal" wills are not enough.

In this morning's paper, the following was printed:

"Brain scans show the area to the brain responsible for higher thinking, the cerebral cortex, has suffered severe atrophy and has been replaced by liquid."

This indicates to me that whatever was left of Terri Schiavo's identity disappeared years ago. What remains, tragically, is the shell of what was once a person.

Edit: I see that Shelly posted the same information in message #12. I fully agree with the other comments he has made.

Dr. Kervorkian is a friend of mine. I have known him for more than 20
years. He is a decent human being, and dedicated to helping mankind, in
spite of all you may have heard or read. All he even wanted was to try and spare people the agony of death...not death, itself...just the pure agony. He would have helped Terri Schiavo, had he not been imprisoned
for life here in Michigan.

DavyWavy -

I was actually thinking how nice (yes you read that correctly) it would have been if Dr. Kevorkian could have helped this poor woman out. I have done a lot of research on the Dying with Dignity movement over the past 15 years. Most of my time was spent sifting through the cases that Dr. Kevorkian was involved with. I became interested in the matter when my mother and her siblings had to fight the hospital my grandmother was in to let her die. She had a living will, DNR and kept removing the breathing tubes on her own, but they kept putting it back in. In my mind Dr. Kevorkian is a hero to those that are dying and want a peaceful end to their lives. Animals are allowed this, but not humans in this country. It really does show how messed up our society is.

--Beth

Thanks for the update, bobbo. That I had not read.

OK well, I know you all will disagree with what I have to say.
Let the woman die in peace. She's been dead for over a decade, the feeding tube being the only thing thats kept her alive by supplying her body with fuel.

The person that was Mrs. Schiavo passed away when the doctors screwed her up in surgery. She's been a vegitable every since, and should have been allowed to die without further possible torment then.


Now before you all start calling me a murder, let me explain my views. I watched my grandfather go through something similar, except his was caused by a grenade fragment moving in his brain that slowly destroyed him. It was the worst thing I could ever see, to watch this strong man, very intellegent and very emotional, reduced to a child and then to even less over a period of several years. By the time he had progressed passed being able to speak or being able to recognize anyone, we struggled daily trying to take care of him when he couldn't take care of himself and the medical community had already given him up for dead. We watched him wilter away to nothing. It was extremely heart breaking for all of us, who knew and loved him to see this strong person like this and finally pass away.

Its been known in my family and it is in my will that should I be in a similar situation, let me go. I don't want anyone else go to through what I had to through with my grandfather.

My heart goes out to Mrs. Schiavo's family. Lord only knows whats really going on, its not up to you or anyone else to question the decision of the family and the person who has the legal responsiblity of caring for her (The husband). Should the parents which to take that responsiblity by court order, then let them have the final say. However, at the present, the husband does, and its his voice thats making the call.

Don't think there was any surgery involved.

There have just been too many questions raised, although why it took all these years to hear some of them is strange, to now be so adamant that the procedure be allowed to go on immediately. I can fathom no reason why delay would be a problem.

I get a bad impression of the Husband's true wishes not being fully explained and agree that just verbal comments have no place being given the weight that the judges have assigned.

Probably moot points by now.

This has been on the press here, the case that is. The thing that has
most amazed me is how any court could rule that the best way is to
starve her to death. Or is the reason for that so that the parents
have time to lodge more appeals. Like if the decision is to let her
die, then surely you would make it as quick and peaceful as possible.

"the feeding tube being the only thing thats kept her alive by supplying her body with fuel."

You are wrong. She was able to eat, that is why they have banned food rather than simply pulling her feeding tube.
Her husband threw a fit early on when he found out that nurses were spoon feeding her.
That is part of therapy for something like this. That is just one of the many things to help her get better that he denied her.

She is not a vegetable by any definition of the word.

Her damage is done. Now it's down to you saying a husband, who has not kept his vows and who could not give her a kidney has 100% dictatorial control over his wife vs others saying that all family members have a say in a family member's life.
The only time I know of one member in a family trying to take 100% dictatorial control like this is when they were trying to kill someone early. Generally it was to grab some money.
In every other case the decisions that needed made were discussed between all family members with the one having the legal control signing the papers.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Not that it matters, but since the US does not have Medical Coverage who is paying the enormous hospital bills? Insurance?

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

"but since the US does not have Medical Coverage" Obviously, you do not know what you are stating. Where do you get your knowledge?

Malpractice payments are paying.

As far as I know two cases were won in her name for $500,000 and $600,000. Then a case was won in his name for $1.4million, that was to be put into a trust for her care.
The judge allowed him to spend that trying to have her killed. Very little of that money has gone to her care, according to him and his lawyers, it is almost all gone, meaning it has gone to lawyers instead of doctors.

If she really is out of money (him and his lawyers ignore her two settlements in their claims), she could be on medicaid. Medicaid has plenty of money wasting rules (like they wouldn't pay for a colonoscopy as wellness care but they would pay for one too late and then to remove a cancerous colon and buy the bags for the rest of your life) but it is there.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Like it or not since she is married, her husband has the final word not her parents. Not my view but that of every State and Federal Judge.

The case is no more about Terry Schiavo, and her sad plight, but the legal, political machinations of the State and Federal Governments plus the battle of wills pitting the husband against the parents. Meanwhile Terry WILL die and then they will fight about cremation versus burial. More courtcases, injunctions and words of sorrow from everyone concerned.

Will everyone kindly butt out and let the spouse make the decision. If not morally, then legally, that is the law.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I agree with Myk when he writes,

"I don't consider a feeding tube in someone who can can't (or at least I think that is what you meant to write Myk)eat on their own to be artificial life support."
Edit: By reading your added post(#11) Myk, I see that you meant to say "can". Either way, starving someone to death is unacceptable!
"I also don't consider denying her food a way of letting nature take its course. You can deny anyone food and water and they'll die. They did not simply pull her feeding tube, they banned her food and water."

In this county, if you had a crippled dog who could not fend for himself and you pinned him and let him starve to death, you would be arrested. I can't believe that the folks in this country are legally doing this to a human being.

If she was on life support (like something keeping her heart beating, or making her breath, I would have no problem with them pulling the plug) But to watch this woman die of dehydration and starvation is a whole different story. I am told that dehydration alone is a slow painful death!

I am sure her husband as well as her whole family have been through living hell over all of this. Her husband loved her very much. But lets face it--Life has moved on--he does not have the same feelings for her now that he had at first. What I can't understand, is why doesn't he just divorce her and turn her care over to her parents? My heart goes out to them all.

" Arlene
Life is a journey... not a destination. Enjoy the trip!

She is able to eat on her own. She can eat without a feeding tube, but the courts have denied her food and water even from a spoon.
That is why people have been trying to smuggle food and water into her. They weren't planning on stuffing it down her throat with a tube.

In this case, since she could eat if someone fed her but her husband would not allow that therapy to be done, the feeding tube was only needed because of her husband and a matter of convenience to the health care institution she was in. It was not artificial life support.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

WEll said, I agree. We don't kill animals in this manner.

Let the death row inmates die in this manner, not an innocent brain damaged lady.

I did not start a thread on this because I knew what the result would be. Badly misinformed opinions from people whose only knowledge of the matter was gleaned from a few weeks of media frenzy. Here in Florida we have watched this case for over a decade.

Terry Schiavo has been dead for all practical purposes for nearly 16 years. That has been agreed upon by every doctor who has actually ever examined her.

There was a malpractice suit filed by her husband and he was awarded nearly a million dollars. $300,000 went to pay the legal expenses, the balance has been used to pay for her care over the years. The rift between the husband and her parents began when the parents got no part of the money from the suit. Her husband in an effort to mollify the parents offed to donate any money left after she died to the parents favorite charity.

All the case records, over 30,000 pages of them, indicate her husband's constant dedication to Terry's care, he has visited her constantly on a daily basis, and was so demanding about her care that he had to remove her from one nursing facility. Such was his attentiveness and demanding that in all these years she has never had a bedsore. To have people try to accuse him of being a bad husband now in an attempt to gain legal control of his wife, is a disgrace. He could have obtained a divorce and been done with it years ago.

In 1996 several CT scans of her brain showed that between 70% to 90% of her cerebral cortex (the upper part) where nearly all thinking and awareness take place, is gone. It was killed by lack of oxygen. It shrunk and the cells were broken down and carried away, and those areas where the brain had been are now filled with pools of cerbrospinal fluid.

It is time that people let go and allow her the peace of death. Only part of her brain stem, the part that controls heart beat and respiration still is functioning. All you have ever seen out of many hours of clinical recordings are brief snippets lasting a few seconds that appear to the untrained eye to show her response to stimulus. It does not.

Shelly

"Badly misinformed opinions from people whose only knowledge of the matter was gleaned from a few weeks of media frenzy."

Typical Shelly "I know everything, nobody else knows anything unless they agree with me" pomp.

"That has been agreed upon by every doctor who has actually ever examined her."

There is a minority of doctors who say she is not PVS. That minority includes at least one of the court hired doctors and at least three doctors who have filed papers with the court. If you have truly followed the case like you claim, you know this, so I can only assume you are intentionally lying.

A person operating only from a brainstem is a vegetable. Terri does not fall into that category.
A brainstem as you say only controls heartbeat and breathing. Anyone who sees even one second of any video can see she was functioning higher than that.

Once you lie about things like "all doctors" when it's court record that "not all doctors" it's clear that nothing you say can be taken as truth.

What I find most interesting, is that you claim others only gleem from the media, although it is your "facts" and "figures" that are exactly from a recent editorials in the media, not from the courts, family members or lawyers. It's obvious you have picked one side and are only giving one sided information.

Just because you live in Florida doesn't mean you are the only one in the world who has been paying attention to this. What is clear is that you have only been paying attention to one side of this.

I did get the numbers of the suits wrong above. Terri got $250,000 and $1.4m.
Michael got $630,000.
But that's quite a bit more than your "nearly $1m", in fact, I count over $2m.

The facts that matter are,
1) She did not have a written Living Will
2) She did not verbally convey her wishes to enough people.

You want to kill her? Great! Pass a law allowing euthanasia and assisted suicide. But what the courts are doing now is against the law. You would not get away with doing the same thing to a baby, who can also not feed themselves. You would not even be allowed to do the same thing to an animal.
If the right way was taken (passing a law first), then she would not be slowly starving to death, they could OD her on morphine.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3087387

I'm amazed how many people condemn the method of allowing her death, as if starvation and dehydration is somehow more cruel than disconnecting a respirator, or that she would be "happier" with an overdose of morphine. The cognitive brain is already dead and doesn't know or care what the body does now.

In the absence of legal euthanasia, removing the feeding tube is the only legal method of death with dignity, but when I'm in her situation, please remove the tube.

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

My reason for condemning the decision was not for her but for the
people in her life that love her. My way of thinking was that the longer
this circus goes on the more it must be hurting those that really care.

As Shelly as mentioned though, I can only speak from media sources so
my judgements are based on them.

How in the world would you know that? You have no idea what that woman is going thru. Just a guess, right?

Maybe because he's a surgeon?

Shelly

A person operating only from a brainstem is a vegetable.
Terri does not fall into that category. A brainstem as you say only controls heartbeat and breathing. Anyone who sees even one second of any video can see she was functioning higher than that.


From what I see, as a scientist, is a person that has an autonomic nervous system that is working. In other words, everything is involuntary and she has no control of them. You see clips of videos showing the family praising things that Terri is reacting to, but what about the other parts of the video where she blinks at anything and everything in the room, or the muscles in her face just smile at a blank wall? I think that the tapes shown are biased and are put out by the Right to Life groups that have only one thing in mind.

--Beth

Thanks for the informative post, Shelly.

OK, I'll weigh in. I'm a community psychiatrist (not in Florida, BTW). I was struck with the bit of news in the NY Times earlier this week that Terri's original brain insult was due to severe hypokalemia (low blood potassium) that resulted from her having an eating disorder. I have no other facts or details. However, I can speculate that the TREMENDOUS pathology in the family relationships evident in the media circus are consistent with the pathology in families involving eating disorders. Eating or not becomes a power issue, having nothing to do with nutrition or sustenance. Does this sound familiar??

Bottom line: before all of this "hit the fan" and became media-sized and politicized, there were some sad, pained people.

DM

Thank you Shelly for saying it just like it is.

--Beth

>I did not start a thread on this because I knew what the
>result would be. Badly misinformed opinions from people whose
>only knowledge of the matter was gleaned from a few weeks of
>media frenzy. Here in Florida we have watched this case for
>over a decade.
>

So only people with a HUGE ego and living in the State of Florida can understand this?????




Ed W.

How do I feel? Death by judiciary.

Why did he wait 7 years to come up with "she sais she wouldn't want to live like this"? Don't tell me poor guy was still hoping & in the meantime he fathers a few kids & hey " everyone can love to wives at the same time". Give me a break this dude by just looking at him on tv is one screwed up hypocrite. Terri's mom is the one who gave birth to this woman & she has every right to keep her alive. I couldn't see someone putting my mom threw this cuz he'd need lot more then judges & lawyers on his side. Everyone has a right to live.
Obviously some here don't believe in a Higher Being that gave us this life!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

The only good that may come of this sad case is that maybe more people will put their wishes down in writing before this decision is needed.

September 11th will the the 16th anniversary of when I sat and watched my 40 year old wife die after receiving over 100 units of blood products after surgery. Luckily we had discussed both our wishes if something like this would happen to either of us, and they didn't really have a law in writing that allowed you to legally declare your intentions.

As soon her life was honored, I went to a lawyer and had him draft a letter stating my wishes. It didn't mean they had to be followed legally, but MY wishes were known. Today you can do it legally and I believe every living, breathing, person should do it. It doesn't matter what you decide, just put it in writing.

My daughter even told me yesterday to never let this happen to her. She was just 12 when her mother died. This case just brings it to the forefront.

As far as my view on the Terri Schiavo, knowing the facts, which we out of the state of Florida also know, let the poor young woman die in peace. For myself, pull the plug, tube, or whatever needs disconnecting.

Oh, and August 11th will be the 6th anniversary of the night my mother died beside me, having discontinued her renal dialysis and feeding tube. She was of sound mind and chose to stop treatment. I thought it was hard with my wife, little did I know how it would feel talking to her for almost 10 days after feeding was stopped.

So people, let your family know how you feel while you can and take the burden off your survivors.

And maybe our egotistical moderator can give Goodyear some flying tips. Other people have brains and can think too.

Rest in Peace Terri.

Ed W.

She had absolutely nothing in writing. I fully distrust her husbands motives - for crying out loud he is living with and has 2 kids with someone else.
Also, her parents WANT to take care of her, and want to attempt to rehabilitate her (I am not saying that is possible). They should be allowed that chance.
I also want to say that I really don't give a rip how many "studies" have been done that say she won't feel anything while she is dying, or that it is a peaceful death. Give me a break! The only people who know the real answer to that are dead - not some brain in a white coat who "monitored" their death.

Bottom line is that her life shouldn't be ended based on hearsay.

IMHO, I pray the Lord takes her quickly. No one should have to live like she is.

Dr. Kervorkian has the right idea. We don't allow animals to suffer, why do humans have to? I feel each person has the right to choose if they want to suffer then die, or take matters into their own hands and end it with dignity.

It seems she expressed her wishes to her husband about this matter. Why would he lie about that?

The fact that this woman hasn't had a bedsore in 16 years is testimony in itself to the care she recieved. I have worked in surgery for over 12 years now, and have seen people from nursing homes come in to have debridement surgery for bedsores. Let me tell you, it's not a pretty sight.

Let this man move on with his life, let Terri move on to a better place.

My wife and family know how I feel on this and I have it in writing that I am not to be kept alive by ANY means if there is no hope of recovery or any type of brain death.

Mike

"We don't allow animals to suffer....". In fact, if you starve an animal you will charged with a crime.

"It seems she expressed her wishes to her husband about this matter. Why would he lie about that?"
Years later he suddenly remembers her wishes. Wishes she never expressed to her parents or siblings (I don't know how you work it, but everyone I know has been told my wishes).
Suddenly after he gets a girlfriend on the side and has a kid he remembers her wishes.
One of his ex-girlfriends has come forward to say he is lying about Terri's wishes.

Why would he lie about a thing like that???

Not having a bedsore is testiment to the staff, not her husband.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Not having any bedsores is a testament to the care she recieved under the watchful eye of her husband. If you have friends or family in a situation like that, you MUST keep a watchful eye out for them, no matter how good you think the care is at a facility.

LOL, yeah, OK.
It has to be her husband and not any of her other visitors.
It couldn't be the staff, it's only the husband.
It's not the staff supervisor, it's only the husband.

From what I've read, he probably would've liked her to get a bedsore, have that bedsore get infected, refuse to allow her to get any care for that infection and die from it.
Remember, to him she is just a veggie. He doesn't care that she's starving to death, all he cares about is that she dies. If someone doesn't care about starvation, why would you think they care about a bedsore?

BTW, the next person you put into a home, worry more about the care than the price and you won't have to keep a watchful eye out for them.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

This Article pretty much sums up the entire case. It seems more of a personality clash between husband and in-laws with Terry as a convenient pawn.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/26/national/26families.html

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Attachment #1, (gif file)

NYT requires registration.

NYT is liberal, VERY liberal. For some reason this has become a liberal vs conservative issue, with liberals wanting her dead and conservatives wanting her to live. I don't know why, but that's how it is.
If you want to get information from a biased source than you need to balance it with a source biased the other way like http://www.terrisfight.net/timeline.html

But there are plenty of legal sites out there that are giving just the facts and you can do your own reading between the lines.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

I thought this was an interesting comment about the debates themselves. I personally don't have an opinion because I haven't had time to watch TV that much in months, and the only journals/newspapers I'm reading are for class.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article4235.html

Who made these comments, Ward Churchill?

Who made what comments?

It seems to be obvious who wrote the column and the many references are in plain sight in the body of the piece. What comments can't you seem to identify? Or did you bother to look?

My comment was meant to be sarcastic. In light of the present situation, I have no apology.

It's comforting to see that there are still some real conservatives in this country. Their role has been largely replaced by the phony conservatives that caused me to finally leave the Republican party nearly 25 years ago.

So now the usual cast of characters that claim conservatism, but are really extremists, come out distorting it, inventing facts that are at the moment convenient to promoting their real interests. And the unquestioning sheep that make up their followers take up their positions as the Greek chorus.

These for the most part are compassionate people who understandably grieve for someone who has been effectively dead for many years, and her parents who are unable to let go. But they are letting themselves be led by political and social opportunists whose only concern is their own agenda.

Over 200 years of US law, and hundreds of years of English and Roman law before it, decrees that a husband and wife are one, and may speak for each other.

If that is not good enough, we will also find it in the Bible, if we bother to read it.

Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Matthew 19:4-6 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Shelly

The last thing I was expecting is Shelly throwing versicles at us!

You know how it goes, it's superstition when it's convenient, it's preached when it's convenient. It's the way of the sheeple.
It's about like the claims of, "I was a real conservative, but left them to go to the socialists because the conservatives are not conservative enough anymore.", sounds good so why not say it.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Just some fodder for the sheep. It could actually make them think for a change.

Shelly

At the very least, this guy is an adulterer. He should have divorced Terri before getting involved with this other woman and having children.

He claims to love them both...Hogvomit!!

I can agree with that.

I don't. He was about 30 when she lost consciousness, and eventually accepted the fact that she would never recover. He felt his responsibility to his wife, but had his whole life yet ahead of him. he could have abandoned the woman he vowed to protect till death do them part, and been done with it. Instead he found a good compromise and found a good life without turning his back on his responsibilities.

It's sad that people need to demonize him because of their misguided desire to have their own way, and justify their own position. I give the man a lot of credit, I doubt many of us could have done it. Who are any of these people who profess love, but exhibit hate, to judge him?

Shelly

So being an "adulterer" makes every other aspect of his life suspect, thanks for the tip. Would you like a go-go gadget arm for your next reaching statement?

Actually, being a spouse makes a person suspect of any harm whether there is suspected foul play or not. And when cops follow that rule they are more often than not correct about who is guilty when it turns out there is foul play.

The adultery so soon also makes him suspect at least for a motive for wanting her dead. Once he did that he should've been removed as guardian.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

It's not like she's going to divorce him, and there's no indication that "foul play" was involved in her accident. I just don't see the connection. One could easily make the case given certain circumstances that if her husband is a bad person because he's invovled with another woman, Terri is a bad person because she attempted to kill herself (yes, they are both reaching, that's the point).

You are wasting you breath. Some people it doesn't pay to bother answering. I don't.

Shelly

Especially when you know you are not always right, like you always think you are. Too bad you just can never admit it, that takes a real man.



Ed W.

Hey, I know this game. My penis is 12 miles long.

Hey DM, it is good to hear you are back in school. How is the back doing?

He no doubt committed adultery, but that does not diminish him as far as his decisions. I just wonder why he didn't make this decision when he had finally accepted that she would never recover. Having personally sat threw this twice, I am 100% certain that there was a constantly changing pain level increase as death neared. There was a definite body reaction change to pain meds, and the time spacing dropped to under an hour and was needed again. Some day I hope to find out myself for sure, unless I am lucky and croak instantly.



Ed W.

Perhaps he felt that by divorcing Terri, her wishes might not be carried out. I wouldn't expect my wife to just hang around and be miserable with no companionship if I was in that sort of condition for that long. And no, that's not an invitation for forum members to start soliciting sex from my wife and plotting my demise. Unless of course it's on pay-per-view, then we can talk.

It has it's ups and downs. I'd been off dope for a few months, but I recently had to get back on a new muscle relaxer (Soma, flexiril was starting to give me terrible dragon breath) and of course percocet. I find that if I mix the two in a 3:1 ratio (that's 1 Soma and 1/3 pill of percocet) it makes life bearable. I've got a TENS unit now, which is nice, and I expect to have surgery, or surgeries, sometime in May as soon as school gets out.

She can't divorce him even if she wanted to, even if she could want to (and usually ongoing affairs that produce kids do result in that desire).
But I fail to see what that has to do with what you said above.

You didn't think his affair made him suspect, yet being married to someone automatically makes you suspect in the eyes of the law so why should this be any different?
She has a collapse, he's suspect in causing it. Nope, she had eating disorders, he's suspect in being a drive behind her disorders. Who really cares, but there is motive and ability. The fact that he denied her basic therapy early one creates suspicion.
They get malpractice settlements. He starts wanting her killed. He gets the money, he gets to remain good in the eyes of the Catholic church. He has affairs, uh-oh, more motive.

Enough motive that Greer should've removed him as guardian at least temporarily to see how he reacts to nothing to lose. If he still stuck by her side fighting for her death, reinstate him.

It doesn't matter what you say, boyfriend/girlfriend or spouses are always suspect. They are the most likely to have motive and they almost always have the ability.

People want to claim that everyone is demonizing poor Michael. They're doing the exact same thing to the other side. Do you know how many times I've been called a right wing Christian who's pushing some kind of right to life issue about this?
Even after I say I'm for assisted suicide, euthanasia, abortion and even suicide of healthy people, another one comes along to say I'm a right wing Christian.
Seems to me both sides are guilty of politicizing this.

From the libertarian point, she has a right to die, NOBODY has a right to kill her. She failed to write down her wishes or make them known to more than one person.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

That was the whole point of the article I posted, at least from my perspective, that the factioning isn't really based on what people believe, it's the easiest target for people to come up with because people in groups are generally stupid. Even libertarians (big L or little l). Personally I hope Jeb Bush or President Bush intervenes, but that's only because I could use a good laugh.

Oh and I have to agree, that whole "ownership" thing from your other post bothers me as well.

I used to think it was stupid of cops to automatically suspect the spouse. I figured they were wasting vital time trying to solve the case backwards when they should be collecting clues.
But then I started paying attention and they usually are right in suspecting the spouse.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

I don't disagree, I don't know why you think I do. It's a sound process to follow, statistics have thoroughly proven that.

It was "it's the easiest target for people to come up with because people in groups are generally stupid" that threw me off.

People seem to think I don't think she should die. I think she lost all hope of progress years ago and if I was in her shoes I would want to die.
But I don't think he's been acting in her best interests since they got the settlements.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

I was talking about the article, and how it makes note of the fact that factioning, regardless of what the actual debate is, is easy because people are stupid.

Your religion example is perfect in this situation; group A, usually fronted by Important Person Z, a person who claims to be an expert in communicating with Jesus (fuck, I can't even get cable internet out here) and also an expert in several other fields, claims that person X is an abomination in the eyes of God because he went to the First Baptist Church instead of the Southern Baptist Church, and he went to the 10:30 service and not the 7:30 service. Therefore he should be stoned to death and injected with AIDS.

So, Group A-1 takes the easy route: They don't really know what the theological, logical, or empirical evidence that Group A is using, but since they share the same goal, they'll go ahead and start making alliances with Group A. There's no real thought involved, not many people have the patience or time to formulate a rational and explainable reason why they support Group A, they just do it.

This is why I refuse to get involved in higher-level school politics, even though I've been asked to run before. It's a no-win situation, because I'm surrounded by fucking idiots. Perfect example: last week there were two articles in our school newspaper (I can dig them up and/or try to scan them if you want) talking about the same issue.

One guy said that the history department didn't teach about Africa from an African perspective, that there weren't any classes about genocide, and that we didn't focus on American Indians at all. Now, I took comparative genocide, I've taken American Indian History (not the 400 and 500 level class, the 300), and there isn't a class specifically about African History. But the guy was just ignorant, but the thing is EVERYONE BELIEVED HIM. I swear people were talking about how bad of a reflection it was on the school, and I wanted to rape them all with my backpack because they just bought into this dudes bullshit, which I'm fairly sure was nothing more than an exercise in public masturbation.

The other letter was from an Engineering student who said that he didn't need to know anything about other cultures because it didn't have anything to do with his degree, and wouldn't help him in his field. That's great, I thought, I can't wait until this guy has a work-sponsored picnic and pisses off half his employees when he orders in a Meat-Lovers Pizza with extra pork, and tries to start off meetings with some whacked out prayer recital. Getting an education and getting a degree are not the same thing, and our school is filled with ignorant fuckers like this.

OK sorry for the rant, I feel better now. Myk, you should seriously visit our campus, it's like a walking cliche. Have you ever seen that movie "P.C.U.?" If not, I suggest you use that as training material. Especially the first walk through campus, it's almost spot-on.

I guess I read the article too fast.

I've noticed a lot of that from both sides. A LOT OF THAT!
Anti-abortionists constantly try to turn this to abortion. They don't know the whys, they just know it's a life and that sounds kind of what they're for.
I told one that if this is about abortion I guess you'll lose my support.

But these same people do the same thing for elections.
"Come on conservatives, let's all praise Jesus. If we win we can have our Theocracy."
I asked them if they were trying to get me to vote for Kerry.

Then the topic of abortion comes up (I used to be anti-abortion but pro-choice, now because of the numbers of idiots I'm becoming pro-abortion) and lefty will figure I'm an ally for them on some lefty cause.
And of course, being Wiccan I get a lot of that assumption and shock for not mindlessly going along with the party line. (I just started a Schiavo thread at a pagan forum to see how it goes )

I don't need to travel across the country. We have a university here that is well stocked with mindless sheep.
I've been on a movie kick lately, I'll keep my eye out for P.C.U.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

James 2:11 - For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche