What a brilliant idea. Yes, Nigeria would be a good venue to show off half naked beauties.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25137-2002Nov22.html

"Beauty pageant spokeswoman Stella Din said organizers were "saddened" by the deaths but would not cancel the event, scheduled for Dec. 7 in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, some 225 miles southwest of Kaduna."

Yeah, they would have starved to death anyways, but who cares, right?

I wonder how much food Stella has eaten since she arrived in Nigeria.
Think her attitude would be any different if one of her bimbo contestants had been killed?

WTF...

Can't they go any where in the World? so get outta there!

The organizing committee probably has Iraq as a fall-back locale...

Sophie

We should bomb them with tons of hard core pornography dropped from airplanes. It would help distract them from the pageant.

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

What a great example of western culture you are!

Porn bombs! hehehe }>

Operation "Bombshell"

I'll PM you my coordinates.

Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

Excellent post subject line freespirit. Dan Rather just said they're moving it London3telo4

Lucky us!!!!
edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2505729.stm

I just saw on the news that some newspaper had said something to the effect of "Muhammed would have taken these women as his wives". Couldn't help but laugh my ass off

And I, too, DM. What a load. A pathetic attempt to get the locals to think it was somehow okay with their religion.

Why would they want to venue the Miss World, or any other contest, in Africa the most uncivilized and backward country in the World. Tribal riots, Idi Amin (Uganda), Robert Mugabe, nothing to be proud of. The few educated and literate people exploit their own people so that no foreign aid will ever be successful.

I'm glad they finally cancelled and moved the show to London, although that exploitive event should have been cancelled completely.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Talking of "educated and literate people" you might like to know that Africa is a continent not a country.

Sorry, Continent. Its the old ruling Countries like France ( Western Africa ) and Britain that are mainly to blame for most of the the ills that beset that CONTINENT.
I used to sail on ships that sailed to Africa and spent some time there on the Hospital ship "Hope". If you haven't been there please do not comment.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Political correctness has nothing to do with stereotyping an entire continent of people. That's just bigoted and prejudiced.

BTW, there's plenty of places and people in North America who are full of irrational hate towards something. People who discriminate against Muslims solely because of their religion are good examples of this.

>"Sorry, Continent. Its the old ruling Countries like France ( Western Africa ) and Britain that are mainly to blame for most of the the ills that beset that CONTINENT."<
And I thought that America, as it was then, might just have had something to do with the fate of modern-day Africa?

No offence intended.

Just hope to get the record straight. And remain PC, of course! >

Mitch

Heck Man I'm Vietnamese. Dont talk to me about prejudice and hatred. I'm stating a point of view from my observation of spending many years on that continent.

Name me a country on that continent that is without strife, famine, religous intolerance and basically 90% illiterate.

The people have no one but themselves to blame. They still bow to their old colonial masters and allow themselves to be exploited by the "educated" ones among them.

At least the countries in Asia had centuries of History.

I don't know, I feel I'm saying things that sound insulting but I'm not trying to be. I feel that the African continent has not fully evolved. Darwin's theory had a missing Link.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

>Heck Man I'm Vietnamese. Dont talk to me about prejudice and
>hatred. I'm stating a point of view from my observation of
>spending many years on that continent.

I don't care where you're from. Stereotyping an entire continent of people makes you a bigot.

>Name me a country on that continent that is without strife,
>famine, religous intolerance and basically 90% illiterate.

South Africa has a 85% literacy rate. As for religion, 65% are Christian, 2% Muslim, 1.5% Hindu, and 28.5% indigenous beliefs and animist. Are they uncivilized?

>The people have no one but themselves to blame. They still
>bow to their old colonial masters and allow themselves to be
>exploited by the "educated" ones among them.

Again, you choose to stereotype the political beliefs of an entire continent of people. Way to go.

>At least the countries in Asia had centuries of History.

African countries don't have a history? You might want to tell that to the University of Kanses and the University of Oregon, both of which are offering degrees in African history (I'm sure there are other colleges, those two were the result of a quick Google search).

scaramouche, I understand what you mean but as a victim yourself of racial prejudice you should know better than to make such sweeping statements. Of course the old colonial powers were responsible for many of the troubles in Africa but you can't blame them now anymore than you can blame your parents for your own deficiencies once you are adult. BTW we are all African, mankind originated there!

Stop the bickering.You all started from Adam and Eve(a belief shared by many many people)If you are one of them, then we are all more related than the stories about Arkansas families.SO STOP DEMEANING OTHERS!!!!Or do you prefer the great flood which thinned us out even more.Behave yourselves

81 Newbee

Who do you think that you are talking to. I AM NOT DEMEANING ANYONE!

Noreen, like your sig, How did you do it? I only have primitive graphics tools cause I am too cheap to buy the software (probably too dumb anyway) On another note I do not believe in PC at all and kind of tend toward Scaramouche's bent but I refuse to believe there is not value in other people's views. Great bunch of folks here and so I try to read all with an open mind.

tpikdave, I think that I made it here http://www.flamingtext.com/start.html can't really remember, getting old! Anyway you don't need any software, just go to the site and make up a sig and save it. It's free.

Re your other comment, I hate political correctness. As I said I think I know what scaramouche meant but didn't like the way he said it. This is an international forum and his remarks could have caused great offence to some people.

I gotcha...thx for the link too.

Yeah, and I don't believe in Adam and Eve.

So the girls, er, women, are arriving in London.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/838227.asp?0cv=CB10

The rioting and killing in Nigeria underscores the tremendous rift between the west and other cultures. And it once again seems to draw a religious line.

The Muslims are very intolerant and discriminatory towards western customs. It's my belief that many fundamentalists want discrimination to be the order of the land....no, the Earth...for all non-Muslim westerners and other non-Muslim and non-Islamic societies and nations.

On the lighter side, perhaps the West can come up with a refreshingly original money-laundering scam.

I wasn't talking to any one specifically Noreen.I think you were the one softening the tone and rightly so.I dislike posts that get personal in a way that demeans other people no matter their race creed or any other criteria.I truly enjoy the repartee and like it when the discussions become a little heated but when they are demeaning, without humor or obvious jest, they stick in my craw..I consider ALL the folks on this site as somewhat a second family.I learn a lot even though I am not contributing my share.
While on PC911 a post of mine that I hoped would get more people to look at UD stirred up what apparently had been bad feelings between some of the members and a mentor and ended up with some of the members leaving for another site.I still feel bad about that and hope the topics never get heated enough to create a similar outcome.When one reaches my age discussions are great ,arguments are fun, barbs in jest are OK,but insults with deliberate meaness are NOT WELCOME.I believe that some of those are what helped Alex decide he had to move on and we were in danger of losing what he gave to us.Hence my comment which was meant for ALL to consider. sincerely

81 Newbee

81 newbee, if you are making a general comment then I suggest that you make sure that you reply to the first post and not to a following post. You replied to my post so I thought you were referring to me. No offence taken!

I expressed myself badly and for that I apologise if I offended your sensibilities. I spent three years on ships plying to Africa and I've never witnessed such poverty, malnutrition and fatalistic acceptance of such a fate.

Culturally they are a century behind. In Nigeria we have treated( no I'm not a doctor, but voulunteered as Officer on Hospital ship "Hope") people with dieases that defies imagination. Muslim young girls are circumcised. That means that, in later life, any form of sexual intercourse is excruciatingly painful. Its more of a tribal custom. There are literally hundreds such cruel customs that haven't changed since the stone age.

I really don't believe that such ingrained customs can ever change in a hundred years. Thats why the "continent has not evolved" comment.

Actually what annoys me, about these arguments, is people quote me studies (Mr Man). I don't give a darn about someone elses opinions. Live there. Going as a tourist and staying at the Lagos Hilton does not make people an expert. You maybe well read but you haven't lived. Experience is gained out in the field not in the classroom.

Once I was stupid enough to think I could effect change. In South Vietnam I spent three years killing my own people, during the war, operating behind Communist lines with the Special Forces. We did not fight battles we just killed, to spread terror. I then spent a lifetime trying to atone. I'm entitled to my own opinions. Just really sorry I voiced them.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I, for one, always find your insights and opinions interesting and worth listening to. Please don't let anyone else's views stop you from expressing you own. Most of us come here to be exposed to a variety of opinions. As soon as they all become the same, I'm gone.

scaramouche, You're entitled to and should continue to voice your opinion here and the same applies to me.

Scaramouche,I never intended my comments to mean that I had either the desire or ability to censor or limit your comments.I look forward to reading them.I learn a lot from this site especially from comments based on personal experience.
My concerns are based on the experience I had on PC911.In an effort to recruit for UD,I posted"OT Is this topic Xrated".I then expressed surprise that so few of the thousands of people on the site saw fit to sign up to fight cancer.Old Dude objected to the misleading heading and all Hell broke loose.In a day or two insults and counter insults flowed like molten lava.I was assured by both sides of the dispute that the bad feelings had always been there and this was not my problem.Many members whose posts I valued left the site and I still feel that the fued helped Alex decide to change direction in his career and we almost lost the many benefits the site offered.
As a result when I see comments that start to get hot and somewhat personal I cringe.I am not a prude and am not a rabid member of the pollitically correct crowd.
I enjoy reading the comments on this site.I even find myself completely agreeing with HAL9000 at times with his unique views of our Goverment .I enjoy the repartee and strong views on all subjects but feel any subject can be discussed without personal insults.I also realize that some of us have "thin skins" and can be insulted when insult is not intended.Let's all keep posting and enjoy each other without rancor.Sincerel

81 Newbee

>I expressed myself badly and for that I apologise if I
>offended your sensibilities. I spent three years on ships
>plying to Africa and I've never witnessed such poverty,
>malnutrition and fatalistic acceptance of such a fate.
>
>Culturally they are a century behind. In Nigeria we have
>treated( no I'm not a doctor, but voulunteered as Officer on
>Hospital ship "Hope") people with dieases that defies
>imagination. Muslim young girls are circumcised. That means
>that, in later life, any form of sexual intercourse is
>excruciatingly painful. Its more of a tribal custom. There
>are literally hundreds such cruel customs that haven't
>changed since the stone age.

There's a lot of suffering in places like India as well, however that doesn't justify the assertion that Asia is uncivilized. The same applies to Africa.
There are numerous places in Africa which are civilized and proserporous. One doesn't need to spend there life traveling through Africa to see that.

>I really don't believe that such ingrained customs can ever
>change in a hundred years. Thats why the "continent has not
>evolved" comment.
>
>Actually what annoys me, about these arguments, is people
>quote me studies (Mr Man). I don't give a darn about someone
>elses opinions. Live there. Going as a tourist and staying
>at the Lagos Hilton does not make people an expert. You
>maybe well read but you haven't lived. Experience is gained
>out in the field not in the classroom.
>
>Once I was stupid enough to think I could effect change. In
>South Vietnam I spent three years killing my own people,
>during the war, operating behind Communist lines with the
>Special Forces. We did not fight battles we just killed, to
>spread terror. I then spent a lifetime trying to atone. I'm
>entitled to my own opinions. Just really sorry I voiced
>them.
>
>

No one in this thread ever said you weren't entitled to your optinion, however if you're going to make sweeping generalizations, you should expect to be challenged. I find it pathetic that your trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim because people in this thread challenged you when you started voicing your prejudiced views.

Many peoples in the human history of the world were placed in such an unfortunate position as you at times in their lives. My heart goes out to you.

Your input in The Computer Forum is knowledgeable and valuable. And yes, there's going to be some strong opinions on occasion in The Off-Topic forum. You have some valid points in this thread, scaramouche.

Allyn

Obviously, there is nothing else constructive for you(westerners) to do apart from demoralizing the minds and souls of the young and healthy everywhere.
I for one don't care about beauty pageant, I think it's something filthy, imoral and cheap.

Nowhere in this thread do I see anyone praising the location of the pageant. Selecting Nigeria or any other locale with religious zealots, particularly those that restrict women's rights or punish or maim them for simply being female, was a major tactical blunder by the pageant's organizers. That's the only thing I see satirized by the message poster.

I see no one defending the pageant, either. So where are you coming from, Napolean? What's your beef with the members of this forum?

Do you assume that all westerners believe women should be paraded in front of an audience? Or do you simply have a problem with women dressed in appropriate beachwear per the posted photo? Yes, that's right, I think they're dressed well, and no, I don't have any immoral thoughts about them. I have no desire to go to or even see a pageant on television. Hey, I even missed Victoria's Secret the other night!

However, to encourage and facilitate reproduction, it does help that women are generally shaped in such a visually pleasing manner.

Evil? No way! It's God's or Allah's way or a genetically passed hormonally generated instinct to ensure continuation of the species. Just be sure to respect the rights of all women along the way; their right of choice of friends and companions, the right to an education and career, and the right to say no.

Thank God for the young and healthy and the natural urge to mate! They're the ones who can reproduce and parent more little boys and girls who grow up to be teachers, doctors, scientists, airline pilots, ministers, counselors, ambassadors, heads of state, astronauts, paramedics, fire control specialists, police officers, soldiers.....oh, and lawyers! Well, they can't all be perfect!

Let me tell you about my career experience with women. I have found that women have an innate feel for flying. They have the ingrained potential to handle an airplane far smoother than most men. Women also make excellent air traffic controllers and supervisors and facility chiefs. As a matter of fact, they do most everything equally as well if not better than men.

I take issue with your statement that we westerners are out to demoralize the minds and souls of the young everywhere. I believe that the Taliban and a few other fundamentalist organizations and governments hold that mandate.

Allyn

"I think it's something filthy, imoral and cheap"

Then don't look at it. The difference between free societies and Islamic theocracies is that we have a choice. In our country, if a woman choses to be, for instance, a stripper, and we, personally don't like that, we tell our children what we think about it, and teach them the values that we want to instill in them. In your land, where ever that is, she might be stoned or murdered in some other way. For those who have no problems with strippers - those who watch and those who do the stripping - well, they are free to enjoy it. You are, obviously, incapable of even begining to understand the concept of freedom of choice. America was founded for freedom of choice, pal, and if you don't like it, then confine yourself to your narrow, brutal, backward, misogynistc view of reality. The only sorry part about it is, the women and children who will be victimized by pathetic little tyrants like you.
One other thing - when Muslims want to practice their religion and lifestyle in the US and many other countries, they are free to do so. The reverse is not the case in the Islamic theocracies. Why? Because the injustice and brutality of these systems would crumble to the ground if free thought and living ever got a foothold. In other words, they are built on a foundation of fear backed up by crimes, to keep the people down and intimidated.
In my opinion, the Miss World Pageant and other beauty contests, are shallow and silly. To react to something like that, as they did in Nigeria, is nothing short of insane.

Well said, freespirit! The smilies are in joyful respect.

Allyn

Yeah!

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

If you want to see real beauty head to Shelly's state.This is a Florida GoGo dancer.I hope the pasties make this modest enough not to offend anyone.She's at least 10 years younger than me.I heard she was Miss World in 1939.

81 Newbee

Attachment #1, (html file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

freespirit
Waaay well said. You and I are probably politically and spiritually polar opposites but we are Americans and respect each others right to follow our own stars. Again, Thanks for that great shot across the bow of tyrany

I fear freespirits wise words will fall on deaf ears. We are preaching to the ignorant.

It is the declared intention of Islam to destroy all those who do not believe.

Tone
Tone

>It is the declared intention of Islam to destroy all those
>who do not believe.

Christianity too. Stop acting like Islam is some sort of ultimate evil. The Koran is no worse than the Bible.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

While I may be no Bible thumper, you are waaay off base. Show us where Christians have said that all non-Christians should be killed. Show us Christian fatwas. What the hell are you talking about?

Just playing the Devils Advocate here..

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

Leviticus 20:27 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."

Exactly why I'm not a Bible follower. The BIG DIFFERENCE, in this case, is I don't see Christians spouting that stuff or putting contracts out on people. We have mosques all over the US. I wonder how many Christian churches are in Saudi Arabia.

Been to a Planned Parenthood clinic lately? Or a hospital that performs abortions? Or what about during the 50's and 60's, when "Christian, God-fearing" people persecuted other Christians because they were not WHITE.

And let's not forget homosexuality. It seems everyone against gays relies on a few utterly ludicrous statements in the Bible as justification.

Well, maybe where you live

We recently had a rash of people writing stuff on Glen Terrell Mall (the main walkway through campus) stating "WSU = Fag Lovers" or something to that extent. For the next month of so, every idiot that hadn't completely destroyed his brain cells with alcohol was making the claim that "homosexuality was bad for the survival of the human species", to which I replied "have you looked at the population figures of the world lately? Homosexuals are GOOD for the population!".

"Homosexuals are GOOD for the population"

good point!

>good point!

Nobody else thought so! People seemed convinced that there was some shortage of people on the planet. Reminds me of those pseudo-environmentalist, who claim that the earth is in danger of being destroyed by man.. I say its in danger of being destroyed so that man won't be able to inhabit it.. Good deal for the earth, bad deal for humans!

yeah, I think the earth will win every time.

Stoning is the LAW in some Isalmic countries. The fanatics who have killed abortion doctors are in prison, in this country. Big difference.

And segregation was the law in the 1950's and 1960's. True, thats not the here and now I'm assuming you were looking for, but 40-50 years isn't really that long of a time when you think about it.

I see what your saying but, I am refering to what's happening currently.
I was raised Catholic. It was that story about God telling Abraham to kill his son, that got me to thinking, "you know, this is downright weird." Lucky for me, I was paying attention .

>I was raised Catholic.

So thats whats wrong with you...

hehe
took me a lot of years to live it down!

I don't know the Bible well at all. Was all that before or after The Ten Commandments?

Allyn

I'm pretty sure that most modern U.S. Christians would say that most of the stuff (at least regarding crime and punishment) from the Old Testament is kind of a historical text, to show just how bad things had become. Deut as a text was a "discovered" book, used to quell the instability of a particular region.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

PolaRay

I suppose the Christian argument here would be that those are all books of the old testament. It's been my experience that Christians tend to treat the old testament as more of a history book, while they draw their belief structure from the new testament. I don't know if that's how it's supposed to be interpreted, that's just the way i've seen it presented Old Testament -> Hebrew/Jewish, New Testament -> Christian. Someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong here.

I provided a link in my post that shows the intolerance displayed in the Bible.
Here it is again:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

Some key passages:
Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Psalms 79:6: "Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name."

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."

Where is that happening in the world TODAY? I can point all over the globe where those same types of dictates are practiced by Muslims here, now, TODAY. That is the point.

All I said was that the Koran was no worse than the Bible and that the Bible preaches intolerance. The fact that more people are militant in regards to the intolerance contained in the Koran is irrevelant.

"The fact that more people are militant in regards to the intolerance contained in the Koran is irrevelant."

Bullshit! What's relevant is what's happening and it's called JIHAD.

It's not relevant to my statement that the Koran is no worse than the Bible.

Its not called Jihad. Jihad means "personal struggle for faith", not holy war. What we are seeing now is not "Jihad", but "a bunch of asshats that aren't content to live their lives and decide to fuck with my shit".

I have heard that but, they are the ones calling Jihad. I'd call it terror.

Just look at the amount and diversity of crimes in the us, what do you make of it? did you ask yourself one day why are these henious crimes taking place, surely there must be something wrong. What could that be? Think!

Crimes like what? Blowing up the World Trade Center? That happened here. Or how about the killings in Nigeria that prompted this thread?
Is that an example of the ruthlessness of Western culture? Do you really believe that crime in this country is caused by tolerance of beauty pageants?

Crime in this country is in part due to our freedoms. I'll take the freedoms any day, even with the crime. At least we tolerate other peoples beliefs.

And what country do you live in that is crime free?

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

"No one in this thread ever said you weren't entitled to your optinion, however if you're going to make sweeping generalizations, you should expect to be challenged. I find it pathetic that your trying to paint yourself as some sort of victim because people in this thread challenged you when you started voicing your prejudiced views."
unquote

Mr Man
.....................................................

Ofcourse I expect my views to be challenged. All I was saying is that if you have no firsthand expereience about the country we were talking about, then what are you challenging. Your views are then based on someone elses opinions. I am not a victim. Where did you get that idea? Far from it I am proud at what I have accomplished.

So far you have done nothing but attack me personally. I don't appreciate that. All I was doing was quoting from my experiences. I don't know you, and from what I have read, do not wish to. You strike me as young, inexperienced person with strong views about a subject you know nothing about, except from what you have read. Too young to have experienced life and never been out of the borders of the US. Life is hunky dory. Well it aint fella.

In all my posts I have never attacked another person in writing, but when you have proved youself in life then criticize.

These posts are opinions, peoples differences, thats what makes it interesting to read. If you don't like my opinion don't read.

Very simply the above are my views based on real life experience. People may not like them but I am not trying to be offensive.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

My views are based on statistics and common sense. You insulted all Africans, stating only your personal experiences as "proof" of your assertions. I challenged you to provide objective evidence, yet instead you've reiterated what you've posted before as well as posting appeals to pity (eg "I'm entitled to my own opinions. Just really sorry I voiced them. "), which I assumed was an effort on your part to try to paint yourself as some sort of a victim.
It seems you have no intention of actually backing up views.

I still cannot understand why you think I consider myself a victim. You were the only person in this post that resorted to personal insults. That's why I think you are a inexperienced teenager, whose views are based on someone elses opinions or maybe you've been grounded by your parents and mad as hell.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I called you prejudiced because you stereotyped and insulted the entire populous of Africa. If that's not prejudiced and bigoted, I don't know what is.
As of yet you have neither admitted you were wrong or defended your assertions regarding Africands and Africa. My argument is based on common sense and statistics, while you have presented only circumstantial only your personal experience.

>I called you prejudiced because you stereotyped and insulted
>the entire populous of Africa. If that's not prejudiced and
>bigoted, I don't know what is.
>As of yet you have neither admitted you were wrong or
>defended the assertions regarding Africands and Africa. My
>argument is based on common points and statistics, while you
>fall back on unprovable personal experiences.

Obviously, MrMan, you're studying Africa. You're intelligent and bright. But you haven't a clue how to deal with people. That will come only when you're older and much more experienced and developed as a person. I'm optimistic that you'll make it.

But right now, you're doing it wrong. You've taken an approach that schools and universities use; you're seeking proof much in the way one would prove a theorem in mathematics. And when dealing with human experiences outside of the classroom, that can be a poor path to take.

You need to reread the posts and read between the lines. Remember that we're not in school and cannot pull things out of our heads immediately or instantly research (even with the web) and/or recall every statistic of every nation on a continent or on this planet. What we do easily recall are our life experiences. And indeed they can lead to assumptive errors.

You've already made your point. But your last post referencing "unprovable personal experiences" went over the top. Outside of a court of law or the classroom, no one should have to "prove" personal experiences in this forum. I, for one, believe them in this particular thread.

As a pilot during my earlier years, I saw things in Haiti that amazed me. Yes, Haiti has some good people, but poverty and unsanitary conditions abounded there when I visited it just over twenty one years ago. During descent in a Lear 23 over treacherous terrain, I had a great view of the thatched huts and bare ground in and around Port-au-Prince on Christmas Day, 1980. The contrast with the Duvalier palace south of the airport was striking. Thinking of it reminds me of some photos I've seen in various media of locales on other continents. Can't recall the exact sources....getting old, I guess.

Now, MrMan, do I need to prove to you that I was flying the left seat that day? Do I need to prove that I saw such living conditions from the air and to a limited extent from the ground? And what about the media, magazines, video, etc. of past and present conditions in Ethiopia and numerous other places on the globe?

Or would you prefer to imply that I'm a liar who fabricated the above narrative?

Yes, liars abound everywhere unfortunately. So one must exercise some caution when dealing with people.

Oh, damn!

I just stereotyped everyone! Sorry about that......


Allyn

>You've already made your point. But your last post
>referencing "unprovable personal experiences" went over the
>top. Outside of a court of law or the classroom, no one
>should have to "prove" personal experiences in this forum.
>I, for one, believe them in this particular thread.

My point was that, due to their unprovable nature, personal experiences should not be used in lieu of statistics and facts.

Mr Man, you sure need to grow up a bit and see the world. Someday you will see that you don't know as much as you think you do, real life is nothing you read in a book.

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

One does not need to travel throughout Africa to know that not everyone has the same poltical belief, or that every single place in Africa is uncivilzed. If you honestly think that one does need to do such traveling in order to refute claims that the entirety of Africa is uncivilzed, then you are a fool.

That you are sir, that you are.

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

Mind actually providing a coherent argument? Or are you content in making groundless assertions without bothering to back them up?

I'm not speaking for anyone here but myself.

scaramouche apologized earlier in the thread. And his comment "I'm entitled to my own opinions. Just really sorry I voiced them." does not necessarily show effort to solicit pity or imply he's a victim. That perception is entirely generated by you, MrMan!

And at this time, who really cares if he backs up views? He apologized!

You made your point much earlier in the thread. That was enough.

Allyn

>scaramouche apologized earlier in the thread. And his
>comment "I'm entitled to my own opinions. Just really sorry
>I voiced them." does not necessarily show effort to solicit
>pity or imply he's a victim. That perception is entirely
>generated by you, MrMan!

Yes, I was wrong about that. I apologize.

>And at this time, who really cares if he backs up views? He
>apologized!

I don't care about whether or not he apologized, what matters is that he has neither backup up his assertions or admitted he was wrong.

Statistics,To count is human,to find truth is Imortal!
No one will ever win an argument about relgion.they always end in an impass with no resolution and many hard feelings.
To discuus race will create bigots and racists where previously none existed.It will not change the mind of one who is either.
We are all blowing smoke into the wind.
PAX VOBISCOM

81 Newbee

This is not a debate on religion.
All I ask of scaramouche is that he provide some sort of proof of his assertions or admit he's wrong. He's failed to do either.

To name just few..serial killings, rape, cult or mass murder and the list goes on.

I'm finished my views on this thread. My opinions were entirely my own based on real life observations and not intended to offend any race, color or religion (and any under 18 age group). I really am not trying to convince anyone.

This is a Message Board where people from all over the world give a viewpoint, that is usually not shared by all. This is what makes a topic interesting. How boring would it be to read 50 answers all agreeing with the author?

One of my best friends in Vancouver now, is a North Vietnamese Colonel (retired). We get together frequently and argue, sometimes very emotionally, over the war. We are both Vietnamese who fought on different sides, and have different political views, but that's what makes the conversation interesting. It would be damm boring if we agreed. Anyway he always ends the argument by saying, "But we won" and I usually retort, "Won what? You now live in the enemy's house".

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

It is the height of stupidity and arrogance to host The Miss World Pageant in Nigeria--or anywhere for that matter. The size of the audience (10 Million) alone is a stunning indication of the power of the ideals of Western beauty which is an increasingly monolithic ideal of female beauty and its associated American economic influence of popular culture. A culture whose economic influence has fostered a series of repressive and corrupt governments in Nigeria that have been supported and maintained by the West along with oil corporations bent on capitalizing on Nigeria's oil. As a result of the greed by transnational oil corporations, the delta region has been ravaged by immense poverty and environmental destruction.

And since women are obviously watching as well as men, women are contributing to their own objectification. This objectification is not something that builds confidence in women or girls but rather contributes to classic body angsts. How ironic it is indeed to celebrate America's freedom to be able to participate in shallow events like these that only facilitate and support the on-going oppression of women while crying that Islam or Muslims are patriarchal and barbaric towards their own women. LMAO!

Couldn't have said it better, thank you Hal.

Some of those "objects" would make great collectors items.I am worried that some of the non collectable ones are going to foul up The Masters golf tournanent this Spring.
Hey,I like looking at beautiful women and married one over 55 years ago.We are still together and she is still beautiful to me.
Please don't ask me to prove that assertion Mr Mann.You will have to take my word for it.I used to believe I was invincible too, but life has a way of evening things out.It's frequently a good idea to quit while you are ahead.
If women lay off the Masters,I will let them hold the pagent in my back yard next year }> }> }>

81 Newbee