There are reports surfacing today of an apparent videotaping of the beheading of an American hostage by Al Qaeda in response to the prisoner abuse scandal, the tape having been broadcast on Al Jazeera or one of the similar networks. None of this has been substantiated as of yet, but if true it's a solemn turn of events for the U.S. and the rest of the world. It looks to be turning into a war of cruelty and humiliation, not courage and honor, and it's hard to envision how it will ever end.

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

I have seen reports that seem to verify the beheading and release of a video. As far as a change in the war it is my opinion the action is just SOP for the SOBs.

It will end like all wars, when one side is vanquished or quits.

Shelly

Time to stop pussy-footing around, break out the nukes, and turn the entire area into a sea of glass. I think it is the only way to win this one.

Terry

The world is greatful that you are not in charge.

Shelly

>Time to stop pussy-footing around, break out the nukes, and
>turn the entire area into a sea of glass. I think it is the
>only way to win this one.
>
>Terry

You're not serious I hope... imagine the uproar that would cause. You'd then need to turn the entire Middle East into a "sea of glass" as you put it... unbelievable...

No Carl. I'm not serious....yet. When we lose Detroit or Chicago, something I fear is going to happen...then I will be serious. But these people are determined to destroy us. They will stop at nothing and make no mistake. It is a religious war to them. They believe it is their religious duty to kill us or convert us. This brand of Islam needs to be eradicated. We can't co-exist with it. They will not negotiate, so there is no middle ground that I can see.

Terry

>No Carl. I'm not serious....yet. When we lose Detroit or
>Chicago, something I fear is going to happen...then I will be
>serious. But these people are determined to destroy us. They
>will stop at nothing and make no mistake. It is a religious
>war to them. They believe it is their religious duty to kill
>us or convert us. This brand of Islam needs to be eradicated.
> We can't co-exist with it. They will not negotiate, so there
>is no middle ground that I can see.
>
>Terry


Actually all they want is to remove American and western Military presense from their country. The problem is that the reason might have changed over the years.
Here is a question, would Americans tolerate foreign military presence in America?

Samikhan, are you saying that if we leave Iraq, there will be no more terrorism here in the U.S.? If so, you are very naive. The person who did this beheading is not even Iraqi. He is Jordanian. And the terrorism hit here before we went into Iraq. So you are confusing cause and effect.

Terry

>Samikhan, are you saying that if we leave Iraq, there will be
>no more terrorism here in the U.S.? If so, you are very
>naive. The person who did this beheading is not even Iraqi.
>He is Jordanian. And the terrorism hit here before we went
>into Iraq. So you are confusing cause and effect.
>
>Terry


Not only Iraq, but all Arab countries.
Al Qaeda main beef with the US is the presence of US military in Saudi Arabia. Similarly if US military bases were removed from Bahrain and Oman and a few other countries in the middle east, there would be less terrorism.
There will still be terrorism because of the Palestine issue, but that is a whole different issue. The increase is terrorist activities over the last few years is because of US military presence in the Middle East.

The world is now a global place. Everyone has a presence everywhere. The Middle East cannot just drop out of the world and go back to the 14th century. The threads of their very existence are tied up in business deals that they have with us and the rest of the world. Now that they let the oil genie out of the bag, it will not go back in. We are now dependent on the commodity that they have to trade. So what AQ is fighting for is not possible or allowable. When it comes to international relationships, there are no friends...only interests. Oil is a vital interest for the rest of the world at this time. Hopefully that will change. But we will not allow AQ to drag us back to the 14th century with them. We cannot.

Terry

>
>Not only Iraq, but all Arab countries.
>Al Qaeda main beef with the US is the presence of US military
>in Saudi Arabia. Similarly if US military bases were removed
>from Bahrain and Oman and a few other countries in the middle
>east, there would be less terrorism.
>There will still be terrorism because of the Palestine issue,
>but that is a whole different issue. The increase is
>terrorist activities over the last few years is because of US
>military presence in the Middle East.
Oh, so as long as the U.S. only deals with and is friendly with countries AQ approve of, all is well?

Nightly Reader

>>
>>Not only Iraq, but all Arab countries.
>>Al Qaeda main beef with the US is the presence of US
>military
>>in Saudi Arabia. Similarly if US military bases were
>removed
>>from Bahrain and Oman and a few other countries in the
>middle
>>east, there would be less terrorism.
>>There will still be terrorism because of the Palestine
>issue,
>>but that is a whole different issue. The increase is
>>terrorist activities over the last few years is because of
>US
>>military presence in the Middle East.
>Oh, so as long as the U.S. only deals with and is friendly
>with countries AQ approve of, all is well?

It is the military presence and the military bases that are not welcomed. Trade is fine, there is nothing wrong with it and that is not what they are angry about.
They don't approve of US military having military bases there.
Regarding Terry's reply, i do agree with this being the global age and everyone dependent on oil, but you can't make a country trade with you. You could force them via sanctions etc, but if they don't want to, they don't have to.
There is nothing a country can do about it, except for go in there and invade it.

I have trouble believing anyone with a pulse can be that naive! The admitted goal of Al Qaeda is nothing less than the overthrow of all non-Muslim states and the establishment of a Muslim fundamentalist world order. They are slowly infiltrating all Western European countries already. They are also actively engaged in promoting the overthrow of a the existing governments in any Muslim country that does not conform to their fundamentalist views.

The battle now going on against these terrorists will be neither short nor easy, and will probably be the defining battle of the rest of the 21st century. If we lose, the world will descend into another dark age, that could last for centuries. Wake up and start investigating the real mission these lunatics are engaged in. They consider anyone, western or Muslim who does not share their perverted brand of Islam to be an infidel, deserving to be killed in any manor possible. They have no intention of coexisting with us.

Shelly

Why did he not leave whe he had the chance???

>Why did he not leave whe he had the chance???
The guy is a civilian who was beheaded and you're blaming him???

Terry

Blaming him for what? The US offered hima free ticket home he decided to stay. Im asking why he did not take the opportunity!

Denise,

The only response I have seen is his parents saying it was too dangerous to drive to the airport and he wanted to go to Jordan or Kuwait. And the more I hear from his father, the less I believe anything they are saying.

He was in the country not by a request of the US, other Coalitions, or the Iraqi people. He had many chances to leave, chose not to, and now they blame Bush as usual.

He was a civilian independent contractor, there for the money like most of them are. He even stated he was looking for work. No way this can be blamed on anyone but himself. He didn't have to be there, HE chose to.

Ed W.

What is the root cause that is attracting so MANY new recruits to Al Qaeda's crusade against the Western World, which is not only the US & Western Europe, but their own Countries (Saudi Arabia etc)?

None of the Mid East countries, with the exception of Israel and to some extent Egypt, have a democratically elected Government. Most are ruled by Kings and Princes, propped up by the Western World (because of the oil), and abhorred by the people.

Personally I don't know that Democracy will change anything except probably bring the hardline Clerics to power. Then the Country will revert to tyranny, like Iran after the Shah. They exchanged one tyrant, partial to the Western World, for another (Ayatollah Khomeini), who hated the West.

The Western World, I think, is afraid the oil supply will be shut off if the hardliners take over. Personally I don't think that will happen. You can't drink oil and they need the hard cash that oil brings to pacify the local populace.

What exactly are we trying to accomplish in Iraq? Saddam Hussein was a very bad person we all agree, but there was no link between him and AQ. Removing him was great but now what? There is no cohesive plan for a new Government, that will be acceptable to all factions. Any President, put in by the US, will be seen as a puppet and probably will not survive. The Country seems to have become a staging ground for terrorists of every stripe who have a real or imaginary beef.

I really wonder how long the US will stay the course before public pressure forces a retreat? There are daily killings of US soldiers, kidnappings of foreign Company personnel and general lawlessness.
Its not isolated any longer. How long before the US public says, "Enough". Then what happens in Iraq ?

I feel really pessimistic about any long term peace in the Middle East.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

"but there was no link between him and AQ"

Why do you insist on ignoring that which you don't want to hear?
Who cut off the head? Where were they?
Who had the plot against Jordan?
Why do Saddam's own people who ran his own terrorist training camps say AQ was there?

>"but there was no link between him and AQ"
>
>Why do you insist on ignoring that which you don't want to
>hear?
>Who cut off the head? Where were they?
>Who had the plot against Jordan?
>Why do Saddam's own people who ran his own terrorist training
>camps say AQ was there?

Scaramouche is right, there is no link between AQ and Iraq.
It was an excuse trumped up by the US govt for attacking Iraq.
This excuse was later denied by Colin Powell.
Why are you ignoring what you don't want to hear MYK????
The people who cut Berg's head off were in Iraq, but that does not mean there is a link between Iraq and AQ..
AQ people were in the US also, does that mean that the US and AQ were linked?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

"That was your reaction on September 11 -- that some of these people might be involved?

I assure you, this operation was conducted by people who were trained by Saddam. And I'm going to keep assuring the world this is what happened."

But of course this is from the extremist right wing public television
And I'm sure Saddam's boy was tortured into saying this.

>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html
>
>
>"That was your reaction on September 11 -- that some of these
>people might be involved?
>
>I assure you, this operation was conducted by people who were
>trained by Saddam. And I'm going to keep assuring the world
>this is what happened."
>
>But of course this is from the extremist right wing public
>television
>And I'm sure Saddam's boy was tortured into saying this.

Here is a question for you.
If this is true then why did the US govt deny any link between AQ and Iraq?
Don't you think this would have justified the war against Iraq in the eyes of the international community.
Bush would have loved it if this link between AQ and Iraq were true, then no one would call the Iraq war unjustified and everyone would have been on US's side, but it is lies.
Bush's administration denied any link, they thought there was a link, but found no evidence.
It is common sense!!!!

LOL, you don't believe the US when it's convenient, you don't believe an Iraqi when it's convenient. How convenient.

Maybe this isn't THE connection they are looking for.

They have found WMD too and they deny that because it isn't THE WMD they were wanting.

I'll believe you when you start making some sense.

"Personally I don't know that Democracy will change anything except probably bring the hardline Clerics to power. Then the Country will revert to tyranny, like Iran after the Shah. They exchanged one tyrant, partial to the Western World, for another (Ayatollah Khomeini), who hated the West."

And therein lies the crux of the matter. Democracy is not something the islamic world understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going to work there.

Our resident expert on everything told us Iraq was galloping head first into democracy. Sure they had elections, but before they were held the clerics decided who could or couldn't nominate.

"Democracy is not something the islamic world understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going to work there."

Your self professed air of moral superiority just disappeared with that statement. How ethnocentric of you to lump "the Islamic world" into one homogeneous group and claim they do not understand democracy.
Substitute any other group of people for "the Islamic World" and see how stupid your comment is.

I hope it was just a poor choice of words on your part, if you truly mean that you need to step back and rethink your position.
The Arabs I have met in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar and yes even in Iraq have been for the most part as normal as the people I work with everyday, with the same desires and wishes for a better life, and a peaceful, stable place to raise their families.

Democracy isn't easy, history shows that, but they are being given a chance, whether they manage to keep it going only time will tell, don't prejudge them now as failures.

Your subjugating them, as a class, to a somewhat lower level than a "Western democracy" is pathetic.

I don't doubt that most Muslims are normal people, as you say, but it seems to me that practicing Muslims, even moderate ones, see their faith as a higher authority than the state. (Witness the Iraq elections). And given that, I just don't see how our style of democracy can survive in that climate.

Your subjugating them, as a class, to a somewhat lower level than a "Western democracy" is pathetic.

I didn't say that. Different, not lower. You're that one making the assumption that not being able to sustain a democratic government means "lower", and that's pathetic.

>"Personally I don't know that Democracy will change anything
>except probably bring the hardline Clerics to power. Then the
>Country will revert to tyranny, like Iran after the Shah. They
>exchanged one tyrant, partial to the Western World, for
>another (Ayatollah Khomeini), who hated the West."
>
>And therein lies the crux of the
>matter. Democracy is not something the islamic world
>understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western
>democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going to
>work there.>

Spot on and add to "democracy", for much of the Islamic world, the word, "humanity".

Mitch

>>"Personally I don't know that Democracy will change
>anything
>>except probably bring the hardline Clerics to power. Then
>the
>>Country will revert to tyranny, like Iran after the Shah.
>They
>>exchanged one tyrant, partial to the Western World, for
>>another (Ayatollah Khomeini), who hated the West."
>>
>>And therein lies the crux of
>the
>>matter. Democracy is not something the islamic world
>>understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western
>>democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going
>to
>>work there.>
>
>Spot on and add to "democracy", for much of the Islamic
>world, the word, "humanity".

And you think what the British forces did in Iraq is "Humane"???

Maybe we should start sawing off heads with a dull pocket knife instead of humiliation. It seems that you and your kind don't find anything wrong with that.

>Maybe we should start sawing off heads with a dull pocket
>knife instead of humiliation. It seems that you and your kind
>don't find anything wrong with that.


Ohh i find plenty wrong with chopping peoples heads off.
You seems to think that humiliating people, prisoners, is fine and there is nothing wrong with it.
Even though it goes against the Geneva conventions. YOu think the American army is so kind and generous and they can do no wrong.
The people who chopped off Bergs head are terrorists, people expect them to do such terrible things, but the US Army is the occupying force, they were sent there to liberate a nation, instead they have stooped to the level of terrorists, raping women, beating an 8 year old girl!!!
Now i know people will say that those were the acts of a few people and doesn't represent the American Army. I want to believe that but on the other hand you have to think, they were chosen to be in the army, they went through training and were deemed ok to be in the Army. So in a way they are a representative of the US Army.
Paul Wolfowitz yesterday admitted in front of the Senate Armed Services Comittee that the rules of interrogation given to US soldiers in Iraq were in violation of the Geneva Convention and were said to be inhumane. (CSPAN)
You have the American flag wrapped around you so tight it is cutting blood circulation to you head.

You say you find plenty wrong with it yet you don't get up in arms about it like you do with anything the US does.
It's convenient you can separate who are the terrorists. Yet as soon as we capture them you'll claim they aren't and are deserving of GC protections rather than criminal justice.

I don't believe you want to believe it was an act of a few bad seeds, because you continually blame them all.
If you know of an incident you should turn in the soldier, they will be dealt with as they always have been.

If you hate the US so much, why don't you go back?

>You say you find plenty wrong with it yet you don't get up in
>arms about it like you do with anything the US does.
>It's convenient you can separate who are the terrorists. Yet
>as soon as we capture them you'll claim they aren't and are
>deserving of GC protections rather than criminal justice.
>
>I don't believe you want to believe it was an act of a few
>bad seeds, because you continually blame them all.
>If you know of an incident you should turn in the soldier,
>they will be dealt with as they always have been.
>
>If you hate the US so much, why don't you go back?

The reason i don't go up in arm about it like when the US does something wrong, because the US are the liberators, they are in Iraq to defeat the terrorists and bring some law and order around.
They are the ones who are supposed to act more civilized and not act the same way the terrorists do.
Every prisoner deserves to be treated according to the GC. This is something that every country agreed upon. The US is not exempt from this, not matter how powerful the US they still have to abide by it. If the US does not abide by the GC then they have no right to tell other countries to abide by the GC also.
Regarding the few bad seeds, let's wait and see!!! You will find out that it is not just one isolated incident. Already there are reports of it happening in Afghanistan.
By-the-way, i don't hate the US and i don't hate the People, i just don't like some of their international policies.
I have the right to express my opinion, without having people like you telling me to leave the country.
This country is made up of immigrants, so unless you are a Native American, in my mind you have to right to tell me to leave this country.

Since my great great grandmother marched on the Trail of Tears I guess I have the right.

>>>And therein lies the crux of
>>the
>>>matter. Democracy is not something the islamic world
>>>understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western
>>>democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going
>>to
>>>work there.>
>>
>>Spot on and add to "democracy", for much of the Islamic
>>world, the word, "humanity".
>
>And you think what the British forces did in Iraq is
>"Humane"???

Assuming you have the time to read other threads, you might be interested to see that the so-called abuse photos relating to the British Army have now been declared to be fakes!!!

As you have asked, I do feel that all coalition service personnel in Iraq are very humane by comparison with those have chosen to oppose our troops.
>

Mitch

.And therein lies the crux of the
>matter. Democracy is not something the islamic world
>understands, let alone wants. Unfortunately the western
>democracies in turn can't understand that it's not going to
>work there.


Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia...

More Muslims live in Democracies than non-democracies.

Yeah, well I don't think much of Indonesia's idea of what constitutes a democracy.

>I have trouble believing anyone with a pulse can be that
>naive! The admitted goal of Al Qaeda is nothing less than the
>overthrow of all non-Muslim states and the establishment of a
>Muslim fundamentalist world order. They are slowly
>infiltrating all Western European countries already. They are
>also actively engaged in promoting the overthrow of a the
>existing governments in any Muslim country that does not
>conform to their fundamentalist views.
>
>The battle now going on against these terrorists will be
>neither short nor easy, and will probably be the defining
>battle of the rest of the 21st century. If we lose, the world
>will descend into another dark age, that could last for
>centuries. Wake up and start investigating the real mission
>these lunatics are engaged in. They consider anyone, western
>or Muslim who does not share their perverted brand of Islam to
>be an infidel, deserving to be killed in any manor possible.
>They have no intention of coexisting with us.

Could you tell me which non-muslim country's govt is being overthrown by AQ to set up a "Muslim Fundamentalist World Order"?
The only Muslim country's govt they are trying to overthrow are the ones who helped the US in the war against them. Which muslim country, that is not a US ally in the war against terrorism is being overthrown?

Here are a few things to get you started, Of course, you won't bother reading them.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5239

http://www.enotes.com/islamic-fundamentalism/

http://mediaguidetoislam.sfsu.edu/intheworld/05i_today.htm

Shelly

>>I have trouble believing anyone with a pulse can be that
>>naive! The admitted goal of Al Qaeda is nothing less than
>the
>>overthrow of all non-Muslim states and the establishment of
>a
>>Muslim fundamentalist world order. They are slowly
>>infiltrating all Western European countries already. They
>are
>>also actively engaged in promoting the overthrow of a the
>>existing governments in any Muslim country that does not
>>conform to their fundamentalist views.
>>
>>The battle now going on against these terrorists will be
>>neither short nor easy, and will probably be the defining
>>battle of the rest of the 21st century. If we lose, the
>world
>>will descend into another dark age, that could last for
>>centuries. Wake up and start investigating the real
>mission
>>these lunatics are engaged in. They consider anyone,
>western
>>or Muslim who does not share their perverted brand of Islam
>to
>>be an infidel, deserving to be killed in any manor possible.
>
>>They have no intention of coexisting with us.
>
>Could you tell me which non-muslim country's govt is being
>overthrown by AQ to set up a "Muslim Fundamentalist World
>Order"?
>The only Muslim country's govt they are trying to overthrow
>are the ones who helped the US in the war against them. Which
>muslim country, that is not a US ally in the war against
>terrorism is being overthrown?
>


Attempts in Thailand, The Philippines. If you like, I'm sure I can find more.

>
>Attempts in Thailand, The Philippines. If you like, I'm sure
>I can find more.

You are saying here that Thailand and the Philippines are not US Allies in the war agains terrorism, but in you earlier post you say that the US is assisting The Philippino and Thai governments in fighting the terrorists.

The attempts were being made in Thailand and the Philippines long before 9/11 or even the existence of Al Queda.

You have a problem. You very evidently have no idea of the history of what you are talking about, and are illustrating complete ignorance of terrorism. Stop being an apologist for those who there are no apologies for.

>The attempts were being made in Thailand and the Philippines
>long before 9/11 or even the existence of Al Queda.
>
>You have a problem. You very evidently have no idea of the
>history of what you are talking about, and are illustrating
>complete ignorance of terrorism. Stop being an apologist for
>those who there are no apologies for.

Here is a link for you.
A small section is quoted below..

"One of those places is the southern Philippines where 160 U.S. Special Forces are taking part in joint military exercises with Philippine soldiers against the al Qaeda-linked kidnap group, the Abu Sayyaf"

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/04/16/phil.blair/index.html

You still think that the philippines is not involved with America in fighting agains AQ?

here is another link for you to check out.

section from it
"U.S. forces returning to the Philippines in late January to aid the Philippine military in hunting down Abu Sayyaf rebels were met with mixed reactions."

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/401.cfm


I think you have the problem. You believe what you want to and everyone else who has something to say that you don't agree to is being ignorant. Try to be open minded.
If you are interested i can find more information on the American/Philippino war agains AQ in the Philippines.

There were no US forces in the Philippines for a long time while Abu Nahif fought the government forces. The fact that we are assisting now has to do with the existence of Al Queda there, not the other way around.

And there hadn't been US forces in Thailand since 1975, but there sure have been Muslim terrorists.

Your ignorance is amusing, but really not worth the effort to correct.

Al, I found this interesting reading, and it points out the terrorism in Thailand. That area has been a hot bed for many years.

It is amazing what the television has changed, and now helps to cause.



Ed W.

"Al Qaeda main beef with the US is the presence of US military in Saudi Arabia."

Your "facts" are wrong again. With the closing of Eskan Village this past Winter, the number of American military in Saudi Arabia is in the low dozens. Why bother with the Sauds, when Kuwait is much more hospitable to American forces. Similarly with Bahrain, Oman and Qatar.

Keep rationalizing and coming up with explanations and apologies for OBL and his band of thugs, your present ones are lacking in one essential element, the truth.

Are you that gullible, or is it that you think the rest of us are that gullible?

Explain to me exactly how blowing up the World Trade Center was supposed to achieve getting US military OUT of their country. It seemed to have the exact opposite effect didn't it?
The goal is to kill non-believers, that is what Muhammad taught. I don't care how many moderate Muslims claim otherwise, I know the history.
Don't think I'm singling out Islam, I also know the history of Christianity and the history of the Jews. I also know the history of the various pantheist religions that were around before them.
But there is only one of the world's religion that has declared a world war on religion at this time and that is Islam.

"There will still be terrorism because of the Palestine issue, but that is a whole different issue."

And they will continue to find more whole different issues as long as there are other religions left in the world.

It may be a shocker to you but the US does have outside military presence. The UN is here and we have coop programs with other nations.
And if we needed help from some insane neighbors, like many of the Arab countries do, we would not hesitate to allow a larger presence.

tdripple is probably right. Just like against Japan, this will probably come down to turning them into a sheet of glass. These people are more fanatical than the Japanese dying for honor. Eventually it's going to come down to the world letting them know that we are willing to help them die for their religion and we are going to do it in wholesale fashion.

It would be nice if the fanatics would get taken care of from within their own religion, but it's obvious that that is not going to happen.

>Actually all they want is to remove American and western
>Military presense from their country. The problem is that the
>reason might have changed over the years.


Bull. Terrorist organizations are about power, the power of the leaders. If they get what they claim to want? They will find another thing to want.

Silly me thinking that the coalition forces were sent in to LIBERATE!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/

Ed W.

We all know that these people need no excuse to commit murder. Berg was a dead man from the minute he fell into their hands.

Shelly

"After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting “Allahu Akbar!” — “God is great.” They then held the head out before the camera"

Word fail me..............

Mitch

Yes, very sad indeed.

However, and I don't want to sound cold hearted, whoever goes over there, for whatever reason, knows the risks.
I for one would not go there because it's so dangerous. Besides,
I have absolutely no business there anyway.

On a second note, as I heard or read some place, they said better to be fighting terrorism there than on American soil.
Maybe that's why we're doing what we're doing.

For your info, I'm still very naive on so many things, and think
about things in a simple manner.
Maybe I'm just a simpleton. Oh well.

Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

A commentary on the cruelty of mankind. It must have been especially terrible for his immediate family.

The sad part is, with all the photographs circulating relating to the Iraqi POW abuses, coupled with Bush's apologies and Rumsfeld's contriteness, its hard for the US to take the high moral ground to the Arab world.

However, at least the US is prosecuting the culprits and not celebrating in the streets.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I have yet to see a released photograph that portrays torture. BTW, what is your definition of toruture?

What do you need a photograph for? Berg was beheaded slowly enough to scream in the process. That's torture and cruelty. I'm as angry as anyone about mistreatment of prisoners and how it reflects poorly on our country, but it pales in comparison to this kind of atrocity. The irony is in the photographs, which you seem to want. Seen any photos of dying US soldiers or people exploding into the Twin Towers?

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

I should have made it clear that I was referring to the pictures taken at the prison. That was said to be the justification for the beheading.

You're right it was "prison abuse". Apparently it was bad enough for you President to apologise and Rumsfeld to almost lose his job. The optics do not look good hence the "high moral ground" reference.

The beheading was murder. That I abhor the "prisoner abuse" I can understand given the stress the soldiers are under.

But it does not matter what you and I think. You are talking about a people who hate the US, never had or will accept democracy and who will neve accept peace.

The Contractors, understand the dangers in Iraq. My neighbour just left for a one year contract with a large oil Company. He told me it was the extemely high wages. I wish him well but he's knowingly puuting himself in harms way.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

>I have yet to see a released photograph that portrays
>torture. BTW, what is your definition of toruture?

tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquEre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle

1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain

2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING

torture

Encyclopædia Britannica

the infliction of excruciating physical or psychological pain for such reasons as punishment, intimidation, coercion, the extraction of a confession, or the obtainment of information. Throughout history, governments have used torture against their enemies and as a part of their legal systems. The term has also been more generally applied to acts by individuals…

Shelly

I think its about time to start think about an exit strategy. Iraq cannot be "subjugated" or "reformed" to the Western way. The coalition is hated. Nothing is going to change.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3707499.stm

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

You can trust that exit strategies have been thought up long before it started.
You can trust that the US is not going to simply drop the ball and run away.
The least that is going to happen is we will put someone like Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi in power.

If you want another instant gratification fix like you did with the finding of WMD we can have it work out just like the abuse of the prisoners.

You and the liberals say the coalition is hated, yet that is the exact opposite of what I'm hearing from soldiers who are there. Yes, since the abuse of prisoners things are worse but they are not and have never been as bad as what is getting claimed.