Would the moderators please change the forum description to read as follows?:

"Here's the spot for you to unwind and discuss anything and everything under the sun. Well, maybe not anything. Talk about Religion, Warez, and other illegal activities is still not permitted. Other than that, feel free to talk about daily events, that new joke you just heard, or nearly anything else you can think of. Enjoy! "

Bill K.

I'm not a moderator, and I don't read or post messages about Religion and several other topics. But apparently other members see a need for "religious" posts. If these posts offend you, why not just not read them?

Just my .02¢ worth.

Jim.

The previous thread regarding religion quickly resulted in the kind of name-calling and trite meandering that was partly responsible for the demise of the PC911 forum. The poster at the top of this thread was merely responding to Shelly's logic in locking the thread. He was not offended by the religious theme.

I have to support Shelly in his decision. While the Off-Topic forum is a place to discuss most anything legal, there really is no need for the childishness that some of the threads digress towards. I would bet that the majority feel the same.

Dave

As I said "I don't read or post messages about Religion" so I had no way of knowing what precipitated this thread. But just because a few individuals choose to respond "childishly" isn't a reason to ban an otherwise legitimate topic. Shelly and all the other moderators, can and should exercise their authority whenever a thread becomes offensive or when members lower themselves to name calling.

Childish behavior can erupt over any topic - though Religion seems to be one of the more sensitive topics - but that doesn't mean individuals who reply in a respectful, adult manner shouldn't be permitted to discuss whatever legal topics they wish. What's next to be banned? Politics? Linux? Blonde jokes?

Again, just my .02¢ worth.

Jim.

We've had some good threads about religion in the past. Would we have to go back and remove them?

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

The thread clearly resulted in name calling and other such drivel. It was humorous in its' lunacy. Clearly, one individual was hell bent on creating a stir. This poster's "logic" defied description. As I stated earlier, this is the type of garbage that soured what was once a very fine forum - namely "PC911". Shelly did what a moderator is expected to do - maintain a modicum of order in the forum. Let it rest.

Dave

Having been married to a blue eyed blonde with two University degrees, I think that blonde "jokes" should be banned, along with any superstitious nonsense about them.

:clap:

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

}(

You see just how easy it is to descend to the level of male chauvanism, witless sarcasm and sexual innuendo?

Maybe someone can conjure up some prurient rhetoric ...

Having fathered one with the same credentials, I think they're hilarious and should be required reading.

>I'm not a moderator, and I don't read or post messages about
>Religion and several other topics. But apparently other
>members see a need for "religious" posts. If these posts
>offend you, why not just not read them?


You are absolutely correct! you are not a moderator, and you have no responsibility to maintain order on this site. I however, am a moderator and as such I have to make some hard decisions for the good of the site. Unless and until my collegues here determine that my judgement is wrong, I will continue to make those decisions. There are plenty of places on the web for you to discuss topics that seem to generate too much heat here. Nor do we need to have trolls sitting around trying to think of ways to start threads they expect to cause trouble.

Shelly

I didn't start this thread in order to start trouble, nor did I do it with intentions of being a "troll".

I feel that religion is an acceptable topic for discussion, even though some will abuse that privilege. Abuse can occur regardless of the topic.

Illegal activities being banned is an understandable ban, but NOT religion. There are many members of the forum who do have a belief in a supreme being, and do enjoy seeing other members input.

In my opinion, Shelley, you are anti-religion and you are using your moderator privileges to enhance your own agenda.

Those who don't want to read the threads can obviously skip them, I commonly skip those with topics that do not interest me.

My two cents worth? heck no, more like a nickels worth. Who do I pay?

Bill K.

Shelly may or may not have done the wrong thing in locking that thread. But, Shelly, anti-religion? Nah. He's just anti religious people shoving their beliefs down our throats.

Acadia

>You are absolutely correct! you are not a moderator, and you
>have no responsibility to maintain order on this site. I
>however, am a moderator and as such I have to make some hard
>decisions for the good of the site. Unless and until my
>collegues here determine that my judgement is wrong, I will
>continue to make those decisions. There are plenty of places
>on the web for you to discuss topics that seem to generate too
>much heat here. Nor do we need to have trolls sitting around
>trying to think of ways to start threads they expect to cause
>trouble.

I may be misinterpreting your reply but it appears to be an attack on me, or what I wrote. I am in total agreement with the actions you took as described by dtellier. Nor did I presume to tell you or any of the moderators what to do - I clearly indicated it was my .02¢ worth.

I have to disagree with you on one point you made above. Although I am not a moderator, I do have a responsibility as a "respected", contributing member to maintain order on this site by refraining from childish behavior such as name calling. I didn't post to the offensive thread, nor did I read it.

So, if I misunderstood your reply, I apologize. If I didn't, then perhaps if you re-read what I wrote in context, you might come away with a different understanding.

Jim.

All discussions? of religion or politics are a complete waste of time and emotion.

>All discussions? of religion or politics are a complete waste
>of time and emotion.

Apparently not. See post #5 above. It appears Dave doesn't agree with you - at least as pertains to religion.

And anyway, how would anyone know how "right" and "intelligent" their opinion is without a discussion so that they could see how "wrong" and stupid" everyone else's opinion is. LOL

Jim.

Learning is never a waste of time. And if someone has to put too much emotion into a discussion they are not able to rationally discuss it.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Actually Shelly, "I am going to lock this one before it also gets out of hand", By your own admission you had no reason to lock that last thread. Why do you need your collegues to determine it for you?
The only reply in that thread was from a moderator who must've not thought it needed locked.

One thing I always liked about this place was the moderators light use of moderation, as in only when needed. Other than illegals, topics weren't banned because of name alone. (Although I think topics that got too hot were banned for short times to cool off, if that's your reasoning I can understand that.)

And before you say it to me, no, I'm not a moderator, but I am a member here and have been for a very long time.

I know you've complained about religion topics in the past. If they bother you so much then maybe you should have a different moderator moderate them. If no other moderator is willing or able to moderate them then they should be banned because they do need watched (although they don't need watched any more than any other topic worth discussing). But certainly not because you have a personal distaste for the topic as it seems you do.

I fully agree with you locking the other religion thread and the thread that was made to continue in that vien after the locking (another think I've liked is most peoples willingness to accept the occassional moderation). But this latest one would've made for a good discussion unless or until it got out of hand.
We've had perfectly fine religious topics in the past.

Other than a couple of trolls here and there I think most of us have shown that we are able to discuss most topics without making major problems. Those trolls have been known to cause problems in many different topics. Are you going to let them win and ban all topics?

So is this a cooling off period or are all religion topics locked as soon as you see them forever?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

You are right Myk, we have had some intelligent discussions on religion in the past, but recently we have seen some fanaticism and my intent was to let it cool down. We have some just waiting to hijack any thread on the subject and set up their personal soapbox. I am certainly not anti religion, but I am anti rabble rousing. If any think I was too heavy handed, so be it, it goes with the territory. Any moderator who disagrees with me has the ability and authority to unlock any thread I lock. I will not sit back and watch this forum ruined like so many others have been, because I was afraid of being criticized.

Shelly

>I will not sit back and watch this forum
>ruined like so many others have been

And I have seen at least two of my former favorite forums ruined, in fact one doesn't even exist anymore.

"we have seen some fanaticism and my intent was to let it cool down"

OK, I fully understand that position then.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Since there is to be no "debate", I deleted my message from the locked thread.

Shelly, that's fine with me. I don't like talking about religion (those were the only comments I was going to make) and it certainly wouldn't have been a pleasant discourse in there. It usually isn't.

People... we're not anti-religion. Speaking for myself, I tolerate others' beliefs if it does them good. I don't have to believe in the existence of gods to see that.

I agree this isn't really the place for it, but I don't want to see the description changed to "no religion" because the topic will come up from time to time. (and why shouldn't it)

Grogan

One of the questions that I have always wanted to ask God is, "Who are your parents, and how did you get to be a God?"

Good grief! I thought that I had explained it ALL to everyone.

You are quite right too. The British Military were prohibited from engaging in loose talk about "religion", politics and "matters of a delicate nature". All the time I spent in Military life was blissful. "Religion" has ruined everything I used to know and hold dear.

Belief is a different matter, as All MILITARY Staff know.

There is nothing wrong with a stimulating, rational discussion, no matter what it's about (unless it's illegal). As earlier stated some people do reduce themselves to childish behavior(who me? ) but that is no reason to lock a topic before it even gets started. Not only that, but shouldn't there be some sort of collective decision made by ALL of the moderators before something like that is done? Just a thought.

No, it cannot be a collective decision when action needs to be taken. We can't tie things up in red tape. Fast action is the key to dealing with some potential problems, ideally before they occur.

Grogan

I think it is absolutely stupid to lock a thread just because it pertains to religion. You call it an off topic forum but then one person takes it upon himself to decide what can and can not be discussed. Then, it is made to look like it was just a bunch of non-moderators causing all the trouble, when, if you go back and read the post in question, you will notice it was a fellow moderator that was hurling the insults along with the rest of us. When I hear "the moderators had no choice because others decided to act foolishly and post insults" when a moderator was right in the thick of it, I find that very hypocritical. I'll agree, the post in question was getting out of hand and some really weird personal thoughts were being discussed (sometimes with himself) but if a person, even a moderator, was getting sick of arguing or responding, no one was forcing him to continue to follow that thread. One has the choice to leave at anytime and not return; but face it, curiousity killed the cat. You will keep coming back to it because you want to hear what will be said next. What's next? No silly pictures, dirty jokes, links to humourous sites, etc... Jeez, why don't we lock the thread about cloning. You know, some people think you shouldn't screw with Mother Nature and they might take offense to that particular post. But no, it's about SCIENCE, it's OK. But you better lock all the posts about RELIGION. Just my thoughts (and if you don't like 'em, lock the thread.)

Your opinion has been duly noted, and deposited in the round filing cabinet beside the door. It will remain there, until the janitors make their rounds.

This database grows every day, and a good portion of it is rubbish. We don't mind maintaining it for a bit of Off Topic fun and light hearted diversion, but we can do without pointless clutter like, say, bickering about who created God. At least for today, anyway.

Now, why was a moderator involved in that thread you speak of in the first place? Probably because he perceived it to be a potential powderkeg and was spending limited time that he could have been using to help people with their computer problems checking it to see if it needed moderation, and making comments while he was there. I was doing the same, and that is the only reason I was reading it. We can't just ignore them. I couldn't be arsed to post, because Shelly was doing fine at trying to inject some sanity. If you want to call that hurling insults, that's also your opinion.

Grogan

Who are you to decide what can and cannot be discussed in an off topic forum. You know, if only topics that don't offend moderators are allowed, you might as well get rid of the off topic forum entirely and just have a computer forum; according to your own words, the majority of this site is rubbish (except what the moderators post) so why bother. Then you go on to state that the moderator was only replying to "control the situation". What a bunch of crap. He was doing his best to "throw another log on the fire". I find it funny that with all the "moderating duties" you speak off, he was able to "endure" over a HUNDRED replies to that particular thread. It's funny that the discussion went on for that long and then finally, when someone with "power" decided they had enough, they pull the plug. If one is offended or uninterested by the subject line, don't click on it. To stay in the conversation for over 100 replies shows an interest in the subject or just a desire to be in the thick of a heated subject, so don't, just because you have finally had enough, put a halt to a discussion just because you can. While you're at it why don't we just ban Chattan, KevinR, Jenn, PaulD, etc... just because we don't agree with their ramblings, anti-war beliefs or whatever they believe in. That's not very fair, is it? What happened to fair and open discussion.

Oh, and by the way. Your response to my previous post stated that "we don't need bickering about who created God". Where's the bickering in a post that is locked after no responses? I guess moderators can predict the future also.

Who am I? I'm someone that spends considerable time operating and maintaining this server, protecting our data, moderating these forums and trying to help people with computer problems when I'm not too busy dealing with bullshit from whiners like you. The real question is, who are you to be demanding anything of us?

This is a computer help site. Generous of us, I thought, to provide this area for other discussion.

Grogan

I am not saying you don't do alot of work for this site, am I? And what am I demanding of you? Fair and open discussion? How dare I.

>This is a computer help site. Generous of us, I thought, to provide this area for other discussion

Other discussion? No, just discussion deemed worthy by the moderators.

Oh, and as far as calling me a whiner, Who's whining? Who's locking threads? Who's having a problem with religious posts or posts they don't like? Other members of this forum know that my name doesn't enter the off topic area often and I am not a trouble maker or a whiner, so get over it. I just do not approve of hypocrites. And as far as 12,000 0r 22,000+ posts goes, or the fact you are moderators, none of that means shit. I can say shit, can I? You and everyone else at this forum is just another "geek" in front of computer with a silly avatar or name. Don't let all that "power" go to your heads.

Power? You won't be the first or last asshole to accuse me of that. I do very much resent people telling us what to do though, and you'll get the same sort of reaction every time from me when you take that attitude.

Why don't you go start your own forum, if you don't like what we're going to permit to go on here? We won't be there, and you can talk or fight about whatever ridiculous nonsense you want.

Grogan

rocketrobbie,

If you don't like it, find somewhere that you do. Or start your own site.

I used to be a member of The Ramblers Association, hiking for miles through open contry and woodland. To be pro-peace is to be anti-war.

Civilians love the idea of war when they do not have to do any fighting. The so-called "religious" are the same.

Now we see "religious" groups fighting with each other. If they would all join the Military we could maybe knock some common sense and discipline into the lot of them.

What many do not fully comprehend is that the world of the "mystic" lunatic and raving fanatic is the same as the world on which YOU live.

Indeed it is the this very same world where I and many others are trying to live in peace in a loving atmosphere.

The dilemma is this. What do the peacemakers have to do, kill all the warmongers?

Instead of turning "swords into ploughshares" the warmongers have turned ploughshares into nuclear missiles.

Maybe you should put the Amish or the Quakers into the White House so that they can run the entire planet peacefully.

If you had the responsibility of a peace-maker then you would understand a totally different point of view.

Entirely "something else" which deals in clear thinking logic and not in the emotional nonsense of "religious" fanaticism.

>To be pro-peace is to
>be anti-war.


No, it isn't.

There IS a large difference between war and regulatory control(s) which is/are fair to ... everyone.

All a matter of logistics and logic as opposed to wild-eyed fanaticism.

I do agree with you. After all it is a really a computer forum and a technical one for question and answer, rather than a gossip column.

There is a "religious"/scientific site where people who do appreciate that God's Creation CAN be explained through science rather than mental and physical torture (crucifiction) can discuss these things openly.

It is called Atlantis Rising:

http://www.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=2&start=here

The site is closed for the moment for maintenance.

YOU have to be sufficiently discerning about what is fiction and what is fact, as well as about what is spiritual fantasy and what is spiritual fact, as well as being able to differrentiate between good and evil.

But here we ALL go again, drawn into discussing "religion" rather than simply believing.

My own view is, "Who needs religion when they already believe?"

I much prefer REAL science and discussion about REAL issues rather than fanciful notions put about by "religious" mystics.

As always the MOST important thing is love. Given that this IS the case I am saddened that there are so many who hate each other.

You're doing it again Iain...

I think I've been Hijacked.

It is turning more into a gossip column than an intelli-gent debate.

Intel inside?

>You're doing it again Iain...

Well, I'm happy to see he's providing a link for an appropriate place to discuss such topics at least. That's how to handle it. Picking fights you can't win is far less productive.

Grogan

Good point Grogan, I was actually curious to check out the link to see what it was all about but as Iain (Chattan) said it's down for maintenance...

I have been a member for close to 2 years and do not consider myself a troublemaker. I must say I was surprised to see my post locked, but not upset, because I guess Shelly must have had a reason. I was away on vacation for a week, returned on Sunday, and not aware of the thread that caused all the trouble. Anyways life's too short to get upset over minor things.
Sometimes I like to post Topics that cause thought or controversy, in a nice way. It can get heated but I'm sure nobody means anything untoward, at least I don't.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

I don't think anyone thought that you meant to make trouble, Scaramouche.

Grogan

If you don't like a subject, DON'T go into it, you are entitled to do that, likewise, peeps are entitled to start a thread (within reason of course)if they want to do so.

If I see a topic I don't like, I just bypass it.

where's the problem.

Best Regards
Ian

"Who are you to decide what can and cannot be discussed in an off topic forum. You know, if only topics that don't offend moderators are allowed, you might as well get rid of the off topic forum entirely and just have a computer forum..."

Be careful what you wish for.

The only reason this site exists is because a handful of your moderators refused to let the old forum die, and through a great deal of hard work created PCQ&A. You were not even here at that time, and so don't remember the anguish of our members at the very real prospect of losing the forum. Most went scurrying around the net looking for a new home, but a few of us set about creating this new home.

What helped kill the old forum was constant bickering by a few malcontents who did little other than nitpick the management of the forum, while posting off subject material that caused distraction and inflamed passions.

We decided, with some trepidation to create a side forum here to keep off topic posting away from the computer help forum, which was the only reason for creating this site, to help people with computer problems.

A moderator, contrary to your thinking does NOT have any choice in what posts they read or what threads they follow. I read every post that appears here unless I happen to be away, and reply to many, as do most of the moderators. We pay particular attention to posts and threads by those we find to be trouble makers, and subjects we know to be hot button issues. It is our job to make decisions in an effort to head off potential problems.

You have one Hell of a lot of nerve to accuse me of being anti religion or anything else! I am mostly indifferent to religion, in a long life I have never cared or asked a single person about their religious beliefs or lack thereof. I have studied more religions than you have probably even heard of, and respect the adherents of all of them. I have participated in long and rational religious discussions with Priests, Ministers, and Rabbis. I have read religious texts in a number of languages. I know more about some religions than many of their adherents.

You are free to object to any moderator's decisions. You are also free to stay or leave, but we will continue to make our decisions, popular or unpopular, not because we can, but because we must.

Shelly

Shelly, i stand behind you and the moderators decisions 100 percent...I may not always agree with them but that is part of being human, to disagree....I also see no need for you to defend yourself to these people as you have done nothing wrong.....They are just looking to add fuel to the fire and get under your skin some....The vast majority of people use this site for help or to provide help to our fellow friends...You will always have a few bad apples, but you guys do an excellent job of not allowing those few to destroy it for the masses....Keeep up the good work....

PWRGURU

PWRGURU, you got it correct, well said.

Best Regards
Ian

You said it all there Shelly. We certainly don't want the same thing to happen to this place as happened to PC911. Unfortunatly (...I don't mean that the way it sounds) the membership has grown by leaps and bounds and many do not know the history of what brought this place into being. History always repeats itself. However you and the other moderators are doing your damnedest to prevent it from repeating. I and I'm sure many others are grateful for the effort you folks put into this site.

MSU

:lol:

OK, take two valium and call me in the morning.

MSU

I love this site! I have learned more about computers by having my questions answered and by reading answers to others than I ever expected this old brain to hold.I am impressed by the people who run it.I am also impressed by most of the members who contribute in the computer,OT, and the UD cancer fighting forums.:When I read the aimless bickering about how the forum is run I cringe and I think about how what I considered a harmless attempt to recruit members to UD set ablaze a spark of resentment which eventually led to the demise of PC911.I am trying to tread as lightly as I can here as I NEVER want to see such things happen again.I recall a post that led to Grogan(blunt, tough sounding,with a heart of gold)who had often been a wealth of help to me and many others,leaving and my joy when he returned to the fold.I always appreciated the difficulty the moderators had in keeping things smooth without a lot of censoring.I joined because of the computer forum and then became addicted to the OT forum .I now feel like I am member of a family and look forward to all parts of this site.I have learned a lot about human nature here and a lot about many subjects(including religions) from many different viewpoints.I have come to appreciate Shellys dry humor as well as his computer and other helpful imformation.I even found Hal9000 enjoyable although I %99.9 disagreed with him.There are so many great people associated with this site that are a source of knowledge and ENTERTAINMENT that I hope it continues long after my demise.Bicker, if we must, but let's not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.Calm down and remember if we all agreed on everything this would be a DULL place.Disagree without personal attacks and if a subject upsets you and you can't be rational about it avoid it.Life is too short to be upset too often.Long live PCQandA9(also its moderators)!!

81 Newbee

>helpful imformation.I even found Hal9000 enjoyable although I
>%99.9 disagreed with him.

Why thank you Newbee. Here's more you can disagree with. The moderators on this thread are nothing but a bunch of self congratulating bags of wind slapping themselves on the back at every opportunity for their selfless service to members, most of which are nothing but ass kissers!

Off topic lounge...what a bunch of crap! Off topic as defined by who? Off topic discussions need no moderators. No one can throw punches in here, they're just words. And believe me, many, not all, of these so-called selfless moderators need you members more than you need them. They feed off you. They gloat in their appointed positions of authority and pick one whipping boy after another to pelt with rocks at their discretion. The rest are sheep.

Would you like some cheese with that whine, Hal? You don't like it, start your own site. Bye.

Somebody grab the bug spray, the roaches are back

Shelly

Thanks Shelly... I just about sprayed a mouthful of Coke over my monitor, I was about to call it a night and I dropped by for a quick look and noticed this thread had resurfaced, the last 3 posts before mine have made my day!

They
>gloat in their appointed positions of authority and pick one
>whipping boy after another to pelt with rocks at their
>discretion. The rest are sheep.
>

Kinky, when is it my turn to be disciplined? Do I get to choose the moderator that whips me, or is it random?

Welcome home, Hal

Bill K.

Can't we all just get along??

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Why are my pictures only showing as an attachment???

Hi fishstick,Because you don't check the box that makes them part of the message!
Hi Hal,This time I disagree with you %100.!!!!!!

81 Newbee