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Subject: "The other side of the war" Previous topic | Next topic
jennWed Apr-09-03 07:05 AM
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"The other side of the war"


          

An interesting article, if you can stomache it...
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030408.shtml

  

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Ed W.Wed Apr-09-03 07:16 AM
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#1. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 0)


          

Thank Saddam............

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jennWed Apr-09-03 08:01 AM
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#2. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 1)


          

For what-begging us to invade his country

  

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tpikdaveWed Apr-09-03 08:16 AM
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#3. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 2)


          

Its not his country anymore thanks to us and the Brits. It now belongs to the Iraqi people as it should. They can turn all his palaces into 5 star hotels so the bleeding hearts will have a place to stay when they go over there to "walk among the masses" and feel their pain....whoooha

  

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sophie tuckerWed Apr-09-03 09:17 AM
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#4. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to tpikdave (Reply # 3)


          

disregarding right now whether this war is right or wrong, or the cause, or the casualties on our side which i also abhor, how can you be so callous in regards to the story of that young boy.

Sophie

  

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AlWed Apr-09-03 09:24 AM
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#5. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 4)


  

          

People get hurt in war, people die. It's what happens.

The person who put that webpage up didn't do so out of any feeling for that boy, they did so in order to make a political statement.

Why didn't they put up a story about the children that Saddam's regime dropped into plastic shredders? Or the children hung throughout a town in the South for their parents being perceived as friendly to the coalition?



  

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jennWed Apr-09-03 06:56 PM
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#6. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 5)


          

>People get hurt in war, people die. It's what happens.
>
>The person who put that webpage up didn't do so out of any
>feeling for that boy, they did so in order to make a
>political statement.
>
>Why didn't they put up a story about the children that
>Saddam's regime dropped into plastic shredders? Or the
>children hung throughout a town in the South for their
>parents being perceived as friendly to the coalition?
Wow! I'd really like to get my hands on the crystal ball that enables you to see my true feelings!}>

  

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AlWed Apr-09-03 07:16 PM
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#9. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 6)
Wed Apr-09-03 07:17 PM

  

          

If you are the person who put that page up, and you did so out of any feelings for that boy, you are naive.



  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 12:08 AM
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#18. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 9)


          

>If you are the person who put that page up, and you did so
>out of any feelings for that boy, you are naive.
So would you accuse me of having no feelings if that article had been about an American soldier dying in the hospital? Or maybe you would be applauding my compassion for our troops.

  

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AlThu Apr-10-03 01:11 AM
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#25. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 18)


  

          

That depends on if it was written with the same political bias (either way) that this one is.



  

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tpikdaveSat Apr-12-03 09:32 AM
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#69. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 4)


          

Once you have been there and seen it it gets easier!

  

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ShellyWed Apr-09-03 07:08 PM
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#7. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 0)


  

          

Innocent people get hurt in a war, and some die in a war, that is an inevitable by product of any war. No amount of civilian losses incurred in Iraq can hold a candle to the the numbers brutally tortured and slaughtered daily by Saddam and his assisting monsters.

Would you accept with regret the few that will die as a result of this war, or would you prefer to leave Saddam in power and assure the continued butchery by his regime on these same innocent people, in the tens of thousands, for years. How do you choose?

For every person who is maimed or dies in these few weeks of war, a thousand will be alive in coming years that would otherwise have been murdered, so spare me the crocodile tears of the "peace" activists.

Shelly

  

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golouisWed Apr-09-03 07:11 PM
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#8. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


          

Well written, Shelly. I agree with every word.

Louis

  

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KevinRWed Apr-09-03 07:39 PM
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#10. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


          


that's the problem with this whole discussion...

... it's black and white

It started with Bush...
... either you are for us or against us, no in between
... my parents used to use those kinds of "guilt trips" on me

So there are only two options...
1) accept with regret the few that will die as a result of this war
2) leave Saddam in power and assure the continued butchery by his regime

Well, I have maintained, all along, that I support getting rid of Hussein, but I was not in support of a war to do this. It seems that the general consensus is that a war was the only way. So be it. I don't agree.

And I feel that there are MANY more options than the 2 mentioned above. Now you can ask me what they are. I'm not an expert on this, definitely, but I am an avid radio listener and have heard many alternate solutions, some good, some not so good...

... the bottom line is communication, and I don't feel that avenue was adequately explored before the bombs fell...

My opinion.

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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ukmitchWed Apr-09-03 07:57 PM
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#11. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 10)


  

          


>
>"... the bottom line is communication, and I don't feel that
>avenue was adequately explored before the bombs fell...
>
>My opinion."<
After everything you've just seen and, in your case, heard from Iraq since the war began, I really can't believe that you would still hold such an opinion!

For just how long and to just what end do you think that further "commumication" would have helped anyone else but Saddam and his regime of murderers?

Even the French and the Russians only wanted to keep talking so their dirty little secrets would stay hidden in Baghdad.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the yoke is being gradually lifted from Iraq.





Mitch

  

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scaramoucheWed Apr-09-03 08:19 PM
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#12. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 10)


  

          

I watched the "action" on TV, for the first time after many days, the statue being pulled down and the crowd going wild. A typical mob scene. I only see law and order has probably broken down.

Anyway that scene took me back 25 years ago when my City (Saigon) fell. I relived, briefly, every moment of that terrible day witnessing similar scenes. So when everyone very glibly, in the comfort of their own homes say, that we are freeing the people from tyranny, that they will have a better life from now on. I say you have never felt or experienced what those people (women and children, wives and mothers) are experiencing now, at this moment.

I am not arguing about the pros and cons of this war. Its happened and, from an American military point of view, went very well. The soldier side of me admires the strategy and some part in me wishes I was back on the battlefield again. The human side of me wishes the US had never come into my Country.

Then, maybe this Easter my entire family would be sitting around a table and kids would be playing outside. I imagine many of those families are thinking similar thoughts.


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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AlWed Apr-09-03 08:31 PM
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#13. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 12)
Wed Apr-09-03 08:33 PM

  

          

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=30879&pt=n

Scar,

There are lots of Vietnamese and Dega who have died in Vietnam since the war ended (more than died in the war according to Vietnamese records). Without the entry of the United States, you might be with your family. Or you might be alone in Vietnam instead of Canada. Or you might be dead and your wife the property of some party official. Or you might all have died.

No one knows. But many people were able to get out of that country and live free lives because the US did enter that war. I wish it could have been everyone. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

What will happen in Iraq? That is up to the people of Iraq. For the last 25 years, that wasn't true. It's a start.



  

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dbahnWed Apr-09-03 08:39 PM
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#14. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 13)
Wed Apr-09-03 08:39 PM

  

          

How many thousands of times could this story have been told in Germany during WWII? The only way to bring down Hitler was to kill many thousands of civilians in what was still "collateral" damage even then. It was unavoidable then as it is now, but now it really is minimized, by comparison. Do you think we should have "avoided" WWII, and just let things run their course?

(By the way, look at Germany and Japan now.)

Dave



Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

  

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AcadiaWed Apr-09-03 09:23 PM
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#15. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 14)


  

          

If we had never interfered, Saddam would have eventually built an atomic bomb and BinLaden would have supplied the people to smuggle it in. Then hundred of thousands of innocent American men, women and children would have been killed.

Sometimes it is necessary to cut off your own finger in order to save your own arm.


Acadia

  

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OrchidBillThu Apr-10-03 04:51 AM
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#40. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Acadia (Reply # 15)


          

and that....KevinR.....is Black and White!

  

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KevinRThu Apr-10-03 05:11 AM
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#41. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to OrchidBill (Reply # 40)


          



Whatever you say OrcidBill... you da boss...

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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OrchidBillThu Apr-10-03 06:52 AM
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#42. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 41)


          

Aside from your spelling....I agree.

  

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JPWed Apr-09-03 11:11 PM
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#16. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 14)


          

Civilians were not collateral casulties in WWII. Civilian populations were targeted by all sides in that conflict. The war in Iraq is unique in the fact that great pains are being taken by the coalition forces not to cause civilian casulties.

JP

Find your missing friends...

Proud to be a Brat!



JP

  

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sophie tuckerThu Apr-10-03 03:08 AM
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#32. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 14)


          

>>>Do you think we should have "avoided" WWII, and just let things run their course?

no.

  

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JPWed Apr-09-03 11:17 PM
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#17. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 12)


          

I'm a bit mystified by how you are comparing the fall of Siagon to the liberation of Bagdad and the country of Iraq. I can understand your feelings because freedom lost in Vietnam, but it's a differnet case now. The Iraqis are not desperate to flee the country as happened in Siagon, instead they are celebrating.

JP

Find your missing friends...

Proud to be a Brat!



JP

  

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tpikdaveSat Apr-12-03 09:31 AM
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#68. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 12)


          

I am wondering just what it was that you did in the war. Arvin or civilian?

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 12:26 AM
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#19. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


          

I mean no disrespect when I say that everything you have just said is the usual rhetoric that we hear every day on the news. All we have to go by is what we are being told. Do I think Saddam is a wonderful human being? Not at all. But I also am not niave enough to believe that just because Bush says Saddam is putting his people through paper shredders, it's true. And why is it that every time someone has the audacity to post a so-called 'anti war' sentiment on this forum, they are labeled as flaming liberals, peace activists w/crocodile tears, un-American, etc? Are we not entitled to have an opinion on this war? Or are we just supposed to lay low and keep our mouths shut so we don't offend anyone's sense of duty.

  

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Ed W.Thu Apr-10-03 12:51 AM
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#20. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 19)


          

You or anyone else are free to post your opinions in this forum.

Everyone one else is also free to post their opinions of your opinion. I would not expect to see them all agree with you, if their opinion is different. If you are out numbered, it's because you have a minority opinion.

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 01:07 AM
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#23. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 20)


          

>You or anyone else are free to post your opinions in this
>forum.
>
>Everyone one else is also free to post their opinions of
>your opinion. I would not expect to see them all agree with
>you, if their opinion is different. If you are out
>numbered, it's because you have a minority opinion.
>
>Ed W.

Thanks. I'm kind of new to this forum and I have a tendency to take the replys too personally. As you say, I'm in the minority and everyone feels just as passionately about their opinion as I do about mine. I hope no one else takes my comments as personally as I have taken theirs!:'(

  

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ShellyThu Apr-10-03 12:52 AM
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#21. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 19)


  

          

That is your choice. If you post you can expect to have your views challenged. I have as much right to post my views as you have to post yours, and that goes for anybody that comes here. At no time did I call you any names. The behavior of Saddam and his thugs are well known, and documented, there is no need to accept the opinion of the government or Bush. His crimes against humanity have been reported for years in hundreds of sources.

Shelly

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 01:11 AM
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#24. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 21)


          

>That is your choice. If you post you can expect to have
>your views challenged. I have as much right to post my
>views as you have to post yours, and that goes for anybody
>that comes here. At no time did I call you any names. The
>behavior of Saddam and his thugs are well known, and
>documented, there is no need to accept the opinion of the
>government or Bush. His crimes against humanity have been
>reported for years in hundreds of sources.

Shelly, as I earlier stated, I am taking these replies much too personally and will try to curb that, but my opinion stays the same. Shall we agree to disagree

  

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HauxfanThu Apr-10-03 12:55 AM
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#22. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 19)


          

"quote" Or are we just supposed to lay low and keep our mouths shut so we don't offend anyone's sense of duty."unquote"

Are you saying that we shouldn't reply to your posts? It would seem to me that you posted what you did just so you could offend those who disagree with you.

So...you got your hat handed back to you. Tough! Al's right, and you know it.


  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 01:22 AM
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#28. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Hauxfan (Reply # 22)


          

>"quote" Or are we just supposed to lay low and keep our
>mouths shut so we don't offend anyone's sense of
>duty."unquote"
>
>Are you saying that we shouldn't reply to your posts? It
>would seem to me that you posted what you did just so you
>could offend those who disagree with you.
>
>So...you got your hat handed back to you. Tough! Al's right,
>and you know it.
>
>
Okay, so I am taking these replys too personally. I'll try to get a grip on it. As for Al being right, I'm assuming you are referring to his assesment that I don't have any real feeling for the boy in the article. Both of you are dead wrong, and incidentally, I have immediate family in Iraq right now who I hope come home safe.

  

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AlThu Apr-10-03 01:15 AM
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#26. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 19)


  

          

Why don't you bother to do some research?

It isn't the administration that is claiming these things. It is Iraqis. It is "Human Shields" who fled.

Heck, in the case of gassing the Kurds, it is Chemical Ali and Saddam Hussein.



  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 02:04 AM
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#29. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 26)
Thu Apr-10-03 02:05 AM

          

>Why don't you bother to do some research?
>


I have done countless hours of research on this subject. In the beginning I was completely for this war. I have now come to believe that this war is not just about Saddam or his regime. I didn't come to this conclusion out of sheer stupidity, but out of a growing sense that we weren't being told all the facts. I have heard both sides of the argument, and have chosen the one that makes more sense to me. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Since some of my research has been web based, here is a list of some of the sites that I visit. They are, for the most part, anti war just so you know.
http://www.sobran.com
http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/index.html
http://www.antiwar.com
http://www.crc-internet.org
http://www.lewrockwell.com

  

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doctormidnightThu Apr-10-03 03:24 AM
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#33. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 29)


  

          

LOL, nice sources, you should add Pravda to the list and then it would be complete!

  

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KevinRThu Apr-10-03 03:39 AM
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#35. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 33)


          



I'm sure more could be added that do not fit the "CNN" mold.

Perhaps, one of my favorites...

http://www.arras.net/circulars/


Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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doctormidnightThu Apr-10-03 03:53 AM
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#36. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 35)


  

          

Poets, Artists, and Critics... that have little to no experience fighting in a war, running a war, researching a war, or understanding of the intricate nature of foreign policy, and who are not subject to the vast amount of critical analysis that historians, generals, and the like must endure.

  

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KevinRThu Apr-10-03 03:56 AM
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#37. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 36)


          


Exactly !

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 04:48 AM
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#39. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 35)


          

>
>
>I'm sure more could be added that do not fit the "CNN" mold.
>
>Perhaps, one of my favorites...
>
>http://www.arras.net/circulars/

great website

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 04:35 AM
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#38. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 33)


          

>LOL, nice sources, you should add Pravda to the list and
>then it would be complete!

Pravda?

  

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AlThu Apr-10-03 10:46 AM
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#47. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 29)


  

          

Searching out sites that agree with what you want to believe isn't research.



  

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KevinRThu Apr-10-03 08:45 PM
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#48. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 47)


          



Perhaps, then, you should research some of the sites that Jenn and I mentioned as they don't follow your beliefs...

... and I, for one, will do the same !

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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AlThu Apr-10-03 09:34 PM
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#49. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 48)


  

          

I already did that. Places that are divorced from reality don't especially strike me as research either.



  

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MykThu Apr-10-03 10:08 PM
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#50. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 48)


  

          

I wouldn't trust a place called "anti-war" to give me a unbiased view anymore than I would trust a place called "pro-war". I wouldn't bother going to either for information, although I may go to either for a good laugh.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykThu Apr-10-03 01:16 AM
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#27. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 19)


  

          

"Bush says Saddam is putting his people through paper shredders"

Actually that was relayed from one of the human shields that learned the real story from Iraqis and left Iraq because of it.

I think you have proven Al right and you have proven what so many others have figured out, that a lot of the peace movement about this war is not anti-war but that it's anti-Bush.

If you made a page about a certain soldier to question the costs of war I would still say that you are using that person to push your political agenda.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 02:08 AM
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#30. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Myk (Reply # 27)


          


>
>If you made a page about a certain soldier to question the
>costs of war I would still say that you are using that
>person to push your political agenda.

If by political agenda you mean I am against this war, then yes, I am guilty of that.

  

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sophie tuckerThu Apr-10-03 03:04 AM
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#31. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


          

speaking for myself and having seen life changing physical injuries happen to others, please don't assume i am crying "crocodile tears". i refuse to accept injury to innocents. neither assume that it pleases me to see our soldiers injured or maimed. why in the hell would i want something as destructive as that? i worked at a VA Hospital for 7 years, so i think i put my money where my mouth is as far as my support of the military.

and no i do not want saddam in power either, as people seem to think that one goes with the other.

it baffles me that a society so advanced as this can only come up with this black-or-white solution.

Sophie


  

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JPThu Apr-10-03 03:37 AM
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#34. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 31)


          

The world eagerly awaits a better solution than fighting to solve problems such as what brought on this war. The most brilliant minds that ever lived have so far been unable to find a solution.

I have my doubts that the human race will ever be able to put aside war.

JP

Find your missing friends...

Proud to be a Brat!



JP

  

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81 NewbeeThu Apr-10-03 08:12 AM
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#43. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to JP (Reply # 34)


  

          

Hey Jenn,Knock off the "Sob Story'The fact is that little Ali was really a Kurd.All his family died in a poison gas attack when Sadams Republican Guard attacked his village.Ali and his sister survived because they were off in the hills searching for weeds that they could boil to make soup for their family.When they looked down from the hill as they returned they saw the Republican Guard shooting those in the village who had survived the gas attack.Ali and his sister headed for the Turkish border and came across some wandering Iraqui smugglers who kidnapped and raped his sister while poor Ali was forced to watch.Ali was told to leave or they would kill him.He wandered alone for years eating what food he could scavange.Appaarently one of the weeds that made up most of his diet contained a growth harmone and he grew to 7ft3in.It was obvious that someone would spot him someday and he would become a millionaire basketball player.Unfortunately because of his height he was easily spotted when The Republican Guard raided the Kurdish area again and captuered and fed feet first into a woodchipper which made him too short to ever play basketball and become a millionaire.Since it was the REPUBLICAN Guard that was the cause of his grief Bush was the real villian.I can't go on because of the tears in my eyes.
Hey again Jenn,If BS were electricity you would be a power house.I wonder if you would be surprised if I asked what you drive... }> }>

81 Newbee

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 08:34 AM
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#44. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 43)
Thu Apr-10-03 08:38 AM

          

First of all, it wasn't 'my sob story'. It was an article that I found and wanted to share with the forum elite, such as yourself. Apparently, the 'tears in your eyes' are also clouding your better judgement. As for who did what to whom in the article, perhaps you should forward your critique to the person who actually wrote it, which, incidentally, wasn't me }>

  

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81 NewbeeThu Apr-10-03 09:04 AM
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#45. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 44)


  

          

Hi Jenn,I am sure you have learned by now that a lot of what is on the net is not always true.don't be surprised if a month or so from now my story about the kid who lost out on a chance to make millions playing basketball appears.By the way the UD cancer forum is part of this site.Check it out

81 Newbee

  

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jennThu Apr-10-03 09:51 AM
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#46. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 45)


          

Touche'. What you say is true. Maybe I should uncloud MY judgement. As for your story about the boy and basketball, I am currently forwarding it to my publisher.... }>

  

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EdGreeneThu Apr-10-03 11:05 PM
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#51. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 44)


          

>First of all, it wasn't 'my sob story'. It was an article
>that I found and wanted to share with the forum elite, such
>as yourself. Apparently, the 'tears in your eyes' are also
>clouding your better judgement. As for who did what to whom
>in the article, perhaps you should forward your critique to
>the person who actually wrote it, which, incidentally,
>wasn't me }>
_______________________________________
You're wasting your time and breathe trying to have a normal converstaion with those who would not see.

This was a put-up war to satify Junior's lies about who was repsonsible for 9/11. Within two days, he, Cheney and the rest of the "War Hawks" in his administration, in order to seem as if they had their fingers on the pulse of things, decided that Sadam Hussein was responsible. Just as the O.J. Simpson proesecuters did, they singled out their man and tried to make their assumptions fit the facts. This was also, as I posted way back when, "Junior's revenge", amena sfor that little simpering son-of-a-Bush to get even for what people were (still are) saying aobut his Daddy's failure to take out Saddam's regime while we were in Iraq, just miles from Baghdad.

This war will not redeeem our lost honor, nor will its victory shield Junior from the revalations of the many lies he and his administration told to get us into this war. This war will not restore the moral imperative we once had as leader's of the world's democracies. Junior, in his born-again, Right-Wing misguided zeal has lead us down the road to perdition.

Nothing we do from this day forward will keep others from concluding, as many of them already have, that we are not longer morally or ethically fit to be the "Leaders of the free world." This war is an everlasting stain on our ethics and our honor.

  

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MykThu Apr-10-03 11:30 PM
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#52. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 51)


  

          

Ah yes, Ed, you were so correct about the total slaughter of American forces before they succeeded and the quagmire we were going to get in fighting the Mujahadeen in Iraq.

http://www.pcqanda.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/2374.html

You've been so wrong on everything you've predicted I'm surprised you bother to show your face around here.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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OrchidBillThu Apr-10-03 11:37 PM
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#53. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 51)


          

Ed....chickenshit.....the only way you are going to become enlightened about the whole truth, concerning this war episode, and your political views in general is to pull your head out of your ass.

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 12:14 AM
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#54. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 51)


          

>_______________________________________
>You're wasting your time and breathe trying to have a normal
>converstaion with those who would not see.
>
>This was a put-up war to satify Junior's lies about who was
>repsonsible for 9/11. Within two days, he, Cheney and the
>rest of the "War Hawks" in his administration, in order to
>seem as if they had their fingers on the pulse of things,
>decided that Sadam Hussein was responsible. Just as the O.J.
>Simpson proesecuters did, they singled out their man and
>tried to make their assumptions fit the facts. This was
>also, as I posted way back when, "Junior's revenge", amena
>sfor that little simpering son-of-a-Bush to get even for
>what people were (still are) saying aobut his Daddy's
>failure to take out Saddam's regime while we were in Iraq,
>just miles from Baghdad.
>
>This war will not redeeem our lost honor, nor will its
>victory shield Junior from the revalations of the many lies
>he and his administration told to get us into this war. This
>war will not restore the moral imperative we once had as
>leader's of the world's democracies. Junior, in his
>born-again, Right-Wing misguided zeal has lead us down the
>road to perdition.
>
>Nothing we do from this day forward will keep others from
>concluding, as many of them already have, that we are not
>longer morally or ethically fit to be the "Leaders of the
>free world." This war is an everlasting stain on our ethics
>and our honor.
>


I really could not have said it better myself

  

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OrchidBillFri Apr-11-03 01:25 AM
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#55. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 54)


          

You're right...for once.

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 03:50 AM
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#57. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to OrchidBill (Reply # 55)


          

>You're right...for once.


hmmm....another genius(I use the term loosely) trying to show me the error of my ways

  

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dbahnFri Apr-11-03 02:16 AM
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#56. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 54)


  

          

<I really could not have said it better myself!

That's depressing.

Dave



Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

  

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81 NewbeeThu May-22-03 01:54 AM
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#113. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 56)


  

          

Hi Jenn,You and a lot of the Bush bashing peaceniks while seeming sincere in your opinion of the situation in Iraq have the same problem that impedes your judgement.If you study it the cure is obvious!! }>

81 Newbee

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 06:22 AM
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#60. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 113)


          

>Hi Jenn,You and a lot of the Bush bashing peaceniks while
>seeming sincere in your opinion of the situation in Iraq
>have the same problem that impedes your judgement.If you
>study it the cure is obvious!! }>


MUST you resort to posting a self-portrait? }>

  

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doctormidnightFri Apr-11-03 06:24 AM
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#61. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 60)


  

          

Jenn, with an attitude like that, you're never going to fit in here.

The proper response would be "How did you get your mom to pose for that picture?"

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 08:09 AM
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#64. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 61)


          

>Jenn, with an attitude like that, you're never going to fit
>in here.
>
>The proper response would be "How did you get your mom to
>pose for that picture?"

Why didn't I think of that?! Oh well, maybe next time..

  

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AlFri Apr-11-03 05:31 AM
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#58. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 51)


  

          

Better see the Doc about an increase in dosage, Ed...



  

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doctormidnightFri Apr-11-03 06:09 AM
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#59. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 58)


  

          

You know, the way this Zyban is working, I won't need the other 2 months worth. Maybe we could all get our unused prescription meds together and make a kindly donation.. anyone got some Ridlin?

  

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rocketrobbieFri Apr-11-03 06:31 AM
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#62. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 59)


  

          

What the hell does OJ Simpson have to do with George Bush and the war in Iraq. If you are resorting to these types of comparisons you have definitely lost touch with reality and have run out of intelligent things to say; and it's not a coincidence that the only person that agreed with you was Jenn.

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 08:05 AM
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#63. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 62)


          

>What the hell does OJ Simpson have to do with George Bush
>and the war in Iraq. If you are resorting to these types of
>comparisons you have definitely lost touch with reality and
>have run out of intelligent things to say; and it's not a
>coincidence that the only person that agreed with you was
>Jenn.


INTERPRETATION:'the only person that agreed with you was that other nut'}>

  

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KevinRFri Apr-11-03 08:09 AM
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#65. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 63)


          



I must admit that I am another nut...

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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jennFri Apr-11-03 09:13 AM
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#66. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 65)


          

>
>
>I must admit that I am another nut...

Thank goodness! I was beginning to think I was the only one

  

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81 NewbeeSat Apr-12-03 08:10 AM
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#67. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 66)
Sat Apr-12-03 08:13 AM

  

          

Hi Jenn,Tell "your publisher" that I am not expecting any royalities from my"Story of Ali" I am currently entertaining a story about the people who are sincere pacifists without a polital agenda.So far I have given up the thought of finding any on this site.
I am looking for some who defended the looting and violence of the peaceniks demostrations in San Francisco while crying in their beer about what is happening in Iraq by people long oppressed and and saying that this should be repressed by our troops.A little action to stop it in SFO resulted in charges of police brutality.I am sure they would scream long and loud if our troops shot someone for looting.They are trained for combat not policing.How do feel about pacifists who pillage and loot or those who do so because their team did or did not win a championship?.If you are one of these can you enlighten me about your thinking and logic process. I don't have a publisher so I may ask to borrow yours to tell the story of Jenn,Kevin Ed Etc. }>

81 Newbee

  

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jennSat Apr-12-03 09:33 AM
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#70. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 67)
Sat Apr-12-03 09:42 AM

          

>Hi Jenn,Tell "your publisher" that I am not expecting any
>royalities from my"Story of Ali" I am currently entertaining
>a story about the people who are sincere pacifists without a
>polital agenda.So far I have given up the thought of finding
>any on this site.
>I am looking for some who defended the looting and violence
>of the peaceniks demostrations in San Francisco while crying
>in their beer about what is happening in Iraq by people long
>oppressed and and saying that this should be repressed by
>our troops.A little action to stop it in SFO resulted in
>charges of police brutality.I am sure they would scream long
>and loud if our troops shot someone for looting.They are
>trained for combat not policing.How do feel about pacifists
>who pillage and loot or those who do so because their team
>did or did not win a championship?.If you are one of these
>can you enlighten me about your thinking and logic process.
>I don't have a publisher so I may ask to borrow yours to
>tell the story of Jenn,Kevin Ed Etc. }>

Newbee, Newbee, Newbee...you are entitled to all royalties (minus the 99% middleman fee I charge). So, how do I feel about peace activists defending those who pillage and root? Well, for starters I think that's a bit of a contradiction. It goes without saying that anyone who is vehemently opposed to violence, etc, should not participate in such acts themselves. Not only do those kinds of people fail to make their point, they make complete idiots out of themselves in the process. Everyone should have the right to participate in a PEACEFUL demonstration whether or not their opinion happens to be the 'politically correct' one at the time. I hope you have been sufficiently 'enlightened' about my thought process (although some might say I don't have one }> ). And may I suggest a politically correct title for your story about Jenn, Kevin, Ed, etc? 'Chronicles of the Ridiculously Misinformed Peaceniks' }>

  

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tpikdaveSat Apr-12-03 09:52 AM
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#71. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 66)


          

So, Jenn, were you born a victim or did you go to college and learn to be one at your professor's knee. When the crap hits the fan its people like you that hide or start waving the white flag. Thank God that our ancestors weren't made of such weak stock or we would not be enjoying the freedoms we have. A little more of life's experience, and less seeking out of anti-war books and websites would serve you well to survive in the troubled times we live in. Might I suggest a midnight walk through So. Central LA. Don't forget to take your flag and your rhetoric with you in case you meet someone interesting.

  

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AlSat Apr-12-03 09:45 PM
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#72. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to tpikdave (Reply # 71)


  

          

Research the Moriori, and find out how effective pacifism can be...


April 11, 2003, 12:15 p.m.
A Moriori Lesson
A brief history of pacifism.

By Dave Kopel, Paul Gallant & Joanne D. Eisen

Once upon a time, there was a people called the Moriori. Of Polynesian descent, they are believed to be the first inhabitants of the Chatham Islands, a group of four main islands about 540 miles east of New Zealand.

Based on study of their language, skeletal remains, and artifacts, scholars have concluded that the Moriori shared a common ancestry with Maori tribes who first settled in New Zealand. The Moriori probably migrated from New Zealand to the Chatham Islands around the 13th or 14th centuries.

The Moriori brought with them a culture of violence and cannibalism. But their revered chieftain, Nunuku-whenua, became sickened by the endless combat he was witnessing. Nunuku jumped between two fighting forces, and ordered the fighting and savagery to stop. The stunned warriors pulled apart. According to Michael King's book Moriori: A People Rediscovered, Nunuku demanded: "Listen all! From now and forever, never again let there be war as this day has been! From today on forget the taste of human flesh!" Those who refused to honor Nunuku's decree would be cursed: "May your bowels rot the day you disobey."

And so, virtually overnight, a warring, violent culture changed to a culture of people who practiced what Mahatma Gandhi would later call "ahimsa," or non-violence. Most of us would recognize the Moriori philosophy as pacificism. As King noted, "The membrane of distance, which had protected the Chatham Islanders from contact with peoples who thought and behaved differently from themselves . . . allowed the uninterrupted evolution of their culture and the successful observance of Nunuku's law."

But the pacifist world of the Morioris would be tested to the limit when strangers began to arrive.

On November 27, 1791, 28-year-old British lieutenant William Robert Broughton, commander of the brig Chatham, sighted land where none was supposed to be. The Union Jack was planted in a ceremony that stole the Moriori land for King George III. The Europeans brought with them devastating disease, which killed 10-20 percent of the Morioris.

The Taranaki were one of the several Maori tribes of New Zealand; they were a not-so-peaceful people who did not live under Nukunu's prohibitions. They did know about the peaceful nature of the Moriori on the Chatham Island, and in 1835, the Taranaki Maori decided to migrate to the Chathams.

The Maori majority who stayed in New Zealand fought a long and often successful series of campaigns against the white invaders. Outnumbered by the whites, the New Zealand Maori invented a form of trench warfare, using timber and earthwork structures called pa. They Maori rapidly became expert in firearms and fought longer and more successfully than any other outnumbered indigenous group in the 19th century. It was only because of overwhelming white numerical superiority that the New Zealand Maori were finally defeated in the 1860s-and even then they won citizenship rights and designated seats in the parliament. In New Zealand, the readiness of the whites and the Maori to fight had resulted, after much bloodshed, in a political settlement whereby the majority was victorious, but some minority rights were established. While the gentle stone age Aborigines of Australia had been very quickly crushed and viciously subjugated, the fighting natives of New Zealand preserved a not-insubstantial degree of their rights.

Such was not the outcome in the Chatham Islands. Early in 1835, 400 Taranaki Maori sailed on the brig Rodney to the Chathams; 500 additional Maori arrived by the end of the year. Shortly after the last group disembarked, the Maoris began to take possession of the islands by their ceremony of "takahi," or "walking the land."

King describes the takeover: "Parties of warriors armed with muskets, clubs and tomahawks, led by their chiefs, walked through Moriori tribal territories and settlements without warning, permission or greeting. If the districts were wanted by the invaders, they curtly informed the inhabitants that their land had been taken and the Moriori living there were now vassals."

A council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Maori's predilection for killing and eating the conquered, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs Tapata and Torea declared that "the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative."

And so it was decided. There would be no resistance, no compromise with the principle of Nunuku. King continues: "Morioris were taken prisoners, the women and children were bound, and many of these, together with the men, were killed and eaten, so that the corpses lay scattered in the woods and over the plains. Those who were spared from death were herded like swine, and even killed from year to year."

King suggests that the Moriori decision not to fight back was a spur to Maori brutality, for Maoris confused Nunuku with cowardice, "and by implication worthlessness."

By 1862, only 101 Morioris out of an initial number of about 2,000 were left alive. The strategy "not designed for survival" led directly to the destruction of the Morioris. The Europeans watched the slaughter of Morioris by the Maoris, and did nothing to prevent it.

If Gandhi had known of the Moriori, he might have admired them: "To lay down one's life for what one considers to be right is the very core of satyagraha . . . the bravery consists in dying, not in killing," he said. But as King observes, "The Moriori had learned a tactical and philosophical truth that was to be articulated by other people from other cultures in the twentieth century: non-violence is an effective weapon only against an adversary who shares your conscience."

The last full-blooded Moriori, Tommy Solomon, died on March 19, 1933.

In the United States, Britain, and Australia, some pacifists proclaim their moral superiority to the soldiers who protect the pacifists' right to free speech. What happened to the Moriori would happen to these same pacifists, if not for the protection provided for many generations by the Anglosphere's soldiers and sailors. What the Maori did to the Moriori would have been done a thousand times over to the pacifists by Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, and bin Laden; and every other tyrant whom the pacifists condemned the military for resisting.

A popular bumper sticker says "If you can read this, thank a teacher." If you're a pacifist who hasn't been murdered or enslaved, thank a soldier.

AUTHOR'S NOTE: For those interested in reading more, we recommend the following books: Michael King, Moriori: A People Rediscovered (Penguin Books, 2000); Thomas Merton, ed., Gandhi on Non-Violence: A Selection from the Writings of Mahatma Gandhi (New Directions, 1965); Sheila Natusch, Hell and High Water: A German Occupation of the Chatham Islands 1843-1910 (NZ: Pegasus Press, 1977).

Dave Kopel is research director and Paul Gallant and Joanne D. Eisen are senior fellows at the Independence Institute.



  

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HauxfanSat Apr-12-03 11:02 PM
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#73. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 72)


          

Thanks, Al, that was very infomative. A good lesson for all.


  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 01:13 AM
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#75. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 72)


          

Maybe I have not explained clearly enough the stand I have taken. If the USA was invaded by another country, we can and should fight back. The problem is that we are the aggressors in this war. There is not one shred of hard core evidence that Saddam was planning to attack us. What happened to just 'defending our country' in the literal sense? We have decided that it is necessary, in the interest of terrorism etc, to stamp out the opposition. This is a very unjust position to take, considering that peoples lives are at stake. China has violated human rights left and right for years. The list is long and gruesome, but I don't see our government sending countless troops over there to 'liberate the Chinese'. Not only are we not trying to liberate the Chinese, every time you go into a store you see scores of products made in China, which means we are supporting them. To me, this is a huge contradiction. Until someone comes up with a better reason to support this war, I will continue to stand firm

  

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AlSun Apr-13-03 07:09 AM
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#81. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 75)


  

          

Gee whiz, with your mentality, Hitler should have been left alone to do what he could to Europe. We followed your advice with Pol Pot. It got a few million Cambodians butchered.

You aren't a pacifist. You're just self-centered and selfish.



  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 12:44 AM
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#74. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to tpikdave (Reply # 71)


          

>So, Jenn, were you born a victim or did you go to college
>and learn to be one at your professor's knee. When the crap
>hits the fan its people like you that hide or start waving
>the white flag. Thank God that our ancestors weren't made of
>such weak stock or we would not be enjoying the freedoms we
>have. A little more of life's experience, and less seeking
>out of anti-war books and websites would serve you well to
>survive in the troubled times we live in. Might I suggest a
>midnight walk through So. Central LA. Don't forget to take
>your flag and your rhetoric with you in case you meet
>someone interesting.

I prefer to think of my self as less bloodthirsty verses a "victim". Also, considering the amount of tirades I have received since I posted the link, it would probably have been easier just to parrot the predominate, politically correct view, and saved myself the grief. Which means "weak stock" doens't quite apply either. Life's experiences, while well and good, should not replace common sense. I have looked at these anti-war websites because I believe that there is some truth to them. There is also some truth to CNN,FOX, etc, but it doesn't hurt to look at the other side of things, which is what researching is all about. I do not believe we know all the reasons for this war. For instance, it is common knowledge that Iraq, Iran, and Syria are all enemies of Israel. It is also common knowledge that the US gives 14 billion dollars in aid to Israel per year. That in itself is enough to make me stop and think. This war is not as black and white as most people think it is. The bottom line is, I am very skeptical about the reason for this war, and I don't expect you to agree with me. By the way, since you seem to have researched this so carefully, and I apparently need to broaden my horizons, could you post a list of the sources you used in your search for the truth

  

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ShellySun Apr-13-03 02:02 AM
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#76. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 74)


  

          

There is no question in my mind why we went to Iraq.

BTW, the US foreign aid to Israel, according to the figures I have are 3.5 to 4 billion a year. And 75%-80% of this money is used to purchase arms from the US. Perhaps you can provide an authoritative source for your figures?

Shelly

  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 04:54 AM
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#77. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 76)


          

>There is no question in my mind why we went to Iraq.
>
>BTW, the US foreign aid to Israel, according to the figures
>I have are 3.5 to 4 billion a year. And 75%-80% of this
>money is used to purchase arms from the US. Perhaps you can
>provide an authoritative source for your figures?

Shelly, you are right as far as the past figures. What I should have said is: the US has been giving 3-5 billion dollars a year to Israel. However, Israel has asked for an additional 10-12 billion dollars in aid. Since 1973 they have been, on average, receiving about 8 billion per year from the US. According to my research, the US has approved the additional funds for Israel. Here are some links:

http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=73479
http://news.awse.com/26-feb-2003/Business/17907.htm
http://www.ou.org/public/actionalerts/2003/betty1.htm
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

Whether or not these sources are authoritative is for you to decide.


  

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ShellySun Apr-13-03 05:34 AM
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#78. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 77)


  

          

Every one of your references supports my figures. I assume you understand the difference between a loan, and a loan guarantee. I will also point out once again that almost all of the actual loans we gave to Israel was spent in the US, supporting US industries and businesses, that in turn hired American workers who paid taxes to the US, and spent their wages in this country, and may have ultimately paid your salary. In effect most of all the money we loaned Israel was transferred to the citizens of the USA. In addition, all of that loan money is intended to be repaid. Israel paid back every cent it was loaned from its creation up to 1984.

Shelly

  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 06:08 AM
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#79. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 78)
Sun Apr-13-03 07:35 AM

          

>Every one of your references supports my figures. I assume
>you understand the difference between a loan, and a loan
>guarantee. I will also point out once again that almost all
>of the actual loans we gave to Israel was spent in the US,
>supporting US industries and businesses, that in turn hired
>American workers who paid taxes to the US, and spent their
>wages in this country, and may have ultimately paid your
>salary. In effect most of all the money we loaned Israel
>was transferred to the citizens of the USA. In addition,
>all of that loan money is intended to be repaid. Israel
>paid back every cent it was loaned from its creation up to
>1984.

Shelly, as I stated before, your figures were correct, which is why I left some of those links. I also posted those links to show you where I was getting my higher figures(even though they are recent developements). Now, I am going to give you another link that will definitely rouse your ire. This is a very long(5 pages) article
that attempts to link Israel to the war with Iraq, which was my main point a few threads back. You can write it off if you like, and I already know your position on this war so I don't expect you to change your mind. It seems to me that many people feel that just because I am not in favor of this war, I am an uninformed leftist peacenik(yes, I know you didn't call me that), with no idea how to research the issue correctly. Just because I don't get all my info from D.Rumsfield and CNN doesn't mean that I can't make an informed decision based on BOTH sides of the issue. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, even if you don't agree.
http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm

  

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OrchidBillSun Apr-13-03 06:20 AM
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#80. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 79)


          

jenn....just curious, but have you ever posted on The Computer Forum of PCQandA or are you just Off-Topic?

  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 07:12 AM
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#83. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to OrchidBill (Reply # 80)


          

>jenn....just curious, but have you ever posted on The
>Computer Forum of PCQandA or are you just Off-Topic?

Yes, I have received a lot of help from the Computer Forum. I have posted inquires there 2 or 3 times and everyone there has been extremely helpful!! I found the off topic forum by accident and I have really enjoyed it. I don't know much about computers so I'm afraid I haven't been much help to anyone, but hopefully in the future I will be more knowledgeable

  

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AlSun Apr-13-03 07:21 AM
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#84. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 79)


  

          

You don't seem to be actually able to get your information from anywhere, since you misinterpreted the sources you do claim to have researched.

By the way, are you familiar with the end results of the last times that isolationism was an integral part of US foreign policy?

World War I and World War II.

I take it you would prefer to wait for World War III? Preferably on American soil?



  

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AlSun Apr-13-03 07:11 AM
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#82. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 74)


  

          

Ever bother to find out how much aid the US gives/gave to Syria, Jordan and Egypt?



  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 08:33 AM
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#85. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 82)


          

>Ever bother to find out how much aid the US gives/gave to
>Syria, Jordan and Egypt?

Okay, so I made a mistake...so shoot me. I'm aware of aid being given to Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, which, again is not the original point. Although I have heard that Syria has been given a warning by the US, but again, that is beside the point. If you are so hip on research, why don't you provide me with some of your sources. You obviously feel that this is a necessary war, and you are very quick to pounce on my so-called research. Instead of just blabbing on and on about anti war at least I have tried to provide some of the resources I have gotten my information from, which has resulted in a virtual backlash about my so-called stupidity. Self centered, peacenik, selfish..the list goes on. Why? Because I had the supreme audacity to question our leadership on the war. So apparently you feel that because I feel this way about the war I must have felt the same way about Hitler?? I don't dare comment about the Holocaust, somebody might tell me that I have no life experience or my sources are biased. Instead of blathering on and on about my selfishness, etc, why don't you try to prove me WRONG. Why don't you take it upon yourself to show me the error of my ways. Make it a real diverse info portfolio. How about some sources that are NOT affiliated with NBC, CNN, ABC, ETC. Sure, you could include some of those sources if you like, but I'd like to see some offbeat sources as well. I mean, a sincere effort would be nice, don't you agree? And don't think I wouldn't seriously look into anything you list, because I will (although this last comment will provoke an onslaught of disagreements). At the risk of receiving some humiliating replies I'll tell you something about myself. I am a Roman Catholic. At this point, you are thinking,'what does that have to do with anything?' A lot. If you wish to understand that, go to http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/bertucci1.html
I'll probably get some wiseacre replies now, but there is nothing I can do about that. The point is, whether you believe it or not, I have very sincere reasons for thinking the way I do. None of them selfish.

  

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ShellySun Apr-13-03 08:57 AM
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#86. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 85)


  

          

Jenn, I have never said anything derogatory about you or your views. The point Al was making is that we give aid to many countries.

Egypt receives the same amount of aid that Israel receives, yet if you go to Google, you will find a hundred pages of listings by Muslim sources, and Palestinian sympathizers railing against aid to Israel, and not one single instance of any objection to our aid to Egypt. Why is that?

If you think we attacked Iraq because Israel ordered us to, or even for their sake, as you implied, you are seriously naive. We did not just spend $100 billion, and risk the lives of out military, for anyone but ourselves and our national interests.

As I asked in a previous thread, consider how the history of the world might have changed if we had gone after Hitler in 1933 before Germany was powerful. We just rid the world of a monster every bit as much a threat to the world as Hitler was back then.

Shelly

  

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AcadiaSun Apr-13-03 05:37 PM
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#94. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 86)


  

          

>As I asked in a previous thread, consider how the history of
>the world might have changed if we had gone after Hitler in
>1933 before Germany was powerful. We just rid the world of
>a monster every bit as much a threat to the world as Hitler
>was back then.

True. Hitler had his hands on the most advanced technology of the day and the best-trained army. He probably had plans for much of the world and succeeded on getting most of Europe for several years. Saddam, Hitler and Stalin are all cut from the same mold, who knows where we would be today if Saddam had the best technology and a very good army. He would have for sure at the very least taken over all of Arabia by now and who knows where poor Israel would be. History is repeated by the naïve and spineless; when are we going to learn that the Hitler types have to be taken out as soon as possible. If the U.S., England and France (laugh, laugh) had been willing to lose several thousand soldiers in the 1930’s the world would have been spared 50 million deaths, the final death toll of WWII. Everyone, have a nice rest of your weekend, Acadia.

  

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AlMon Apr-14-03 01:20 PM
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#101. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Acadia (Reply # 94)


  

          

"Hitler had his hands on the most advanced technology of the day and the best-trained army."

Neither is true.



  

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AcadiaMon Apr-14-03 05:02 PM
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#102. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 101)
Mon Apr-14-03 06:29 PM

  

          

>"Hitler had his hands on the most advanced technology of the
>day and the best-trained army."
>
>Neither is true.

OK, I should have said "In the beginning of the war Hitler had the best." Our tanks MAY have caught up with his but the Russians actually ended the war with the most superior tank (designed by an American that got rejected by Chrysler). Our planes definitely passed his although he was the only one to actually bring out a jet into combat and of course he had the flying buzz bombs and V-2 rockets that hit London. (My father actually helped the English try to shoot down the buzz bombs). And no one was ever able to equal his 88mm cannons. Also, we hadn't even started the development of an atomic weapon at the war's start while Hitler if memory serves me correctly (someone correct me if I am wrong about this) actually tested one; fortunately, of course, it was a dud. And I was under the impression that he had the best trained army which would have been one hell of a feat since by treaty he wasn't suppose to have any army at all.

Acadia

  

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AlMon Apr-14-03 06:57 PM
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#103. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Acadia (Reply # 102)
Mon Apr-14-03 07:08 PM

  

          

Not even at the beginning of the war. A myth.

In 1933 (when Shelly suggested), Germany effectively had no military.

In 1939/40, when the war started, both France and Britain had more advanced tanks, better howitzers, and Britain had better fighters and bombers as well as a more powerful Navy. The British Army was the most professional in the world, significantly more so in measurable experience than that of the Germans.

In 1941, when the Soviet Union entered the war, they fielded the most advanced tank of the time in the T-34 (the suspension was designed by an American, not the whole tank).

Germany didn't have significant advantages in technology until 1944, when they fielded jet fighters, started to get sufficient Mk V. Panthers to the front, and added such equipment as the Nebelwerfer and the V2. By that time, it was too late. Germany's supply trains were horse-drawn for the entire war, as were much of their artillery.

The only advantages that the Germans had at the beginning of the war was that they knew what they were intending to do, and they had an absolutely superb General Staff.

In 1933, Hitler could have been easily stopped. The same is true in 1935, 1937 or 1938 and even 1939. In 1940, the Allies could have won if they had bothered to read the writings of their own authors.



  

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AcadiaMon Apr-14-03 07:33 PM
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#104. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Al (Reply # 103)


  

          

I reckon I stand corrected, take care.

Acadia

  

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rocketrobbieSun Apr-13-03 09:22 AM
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#87. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 85)


  

          

You may feel outnumbered or ganged up on here but I must admit, I sense a very bitter tone in your writing. I think you are taking these comments a little too close to heart and if you don't calm down you're going to have a coronary.

I really don't see what is wrong with NBC, ABC, CNN, etc... You seem to think they have this secret agenda, while I feel they have done an excellent job at showing both sides of the story.

As for your challenge for us to seek out more offbeat news sources, I'll repeat what some have already told you. Seeking out sources that agree with your opinions and feelings towards this war is NOT research. We are not purposefully seeking out NBC, ABC, or CNN because they agree with our stance; they are just very respectable news sources, period. To even suggest they have ulterior motives is asinine. There are billions of webpages on the Internet and if someone searches long enough they will find thousands of sites that agree with their opinions but that doesn't mean they are correct.

But even with all this said, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

  

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jennSun Apr-13-03 09:45 AM
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#88. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 87)


          

>You may feel outnumbered or ganged up on here
>but I must admit, I sense a very bitter tone in your
>writing. I think you are taking these comments a little too
>close to heart and if you don't calm down you're going to
>have a coronary.
>
>I really don't see what is wrong with NBC, ABC, CNN, etc...
>You seem to think they have this secret agenda, while
>I feel they have done an excellent job at showing both sides
>of the story.
>
>As for your challenge for us to seek out more offbeat
>news sources, I'll repeat what some have already told you.
>Seeking out sources that agree with your opinions and
>feelings towards this war is NOT research. We are
>not purposefully seeking out NBC, ABC, or CNN because they
>agree with our stance; they are just very respectable news
>sources, period. To even suggest they have ulterior
>motives is asinine. There are billions of webpages on the
>Internet and if someone searches long enough they will find
>thousands of sites that agree with their opinions but that
>doesn't mean they are correct.
>
>But even with all this said, you are entitled to your
>opinion and I respect that.

rocketrobbie, thanks, I needed to hear that. I did not expect the outpouring of replies that I received, and I am not sure how to respond to some of the comments. I really hate it when people suggest that my beliefs are insincere. What I was trying to say about the networks was that there is more going on than what they are allowed to say. A reporter was just fired for speaking his own opinion on Iraqi television, so that's what I meant. Thank you also for saying that you respect my opinion. That meant alot to me. I have really been getting quite upset lately, more so than I should be. I'll try to get a grip on it so I don't have a coronary!!
:'(

  

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rocketrobbieSun Apr-13-03 09:58 AM
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#89. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 88)
Sun Apr-13-03 10:02 AM

  

          

You should never let any of our reponses affect you in such an adverse manner. Try to remember that even though you are having a heated discussion with fellow members, they are arguing with your username; you are still safe at home in front of your computer. God, 'lil Joe called me an ass today; no skin off my hiney. We are just two IP addresses passing in the night, so to speak.

EDIT: Also, you said that some of the replies to your posts you don't know how to respond to, either because they are vulgar or get off topic. Remember that every person that responds to your posting does not have to be answered. You have the choice to answer only those you feel comfortable with. There are some here that will take light hearted potshots at you and there are also a few that come across much more hostile. Remember, you have the final decision.

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:34 AM
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#109. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 89)


          

>You should never let any of our reponses affect you in such
>an adverse manner. Try to remember that even though you are
>having a heated discussion with fellow members, they are
>arguing with your username; you are still safe at home in
>front of your computer. God, 'lil Joe called me an ass
>today; no skin off my hiney. We are just two IP addresses
>passing in the night, so to speak.
>
>EDIT: Also, you said that some of the replies to your posts
>you don't know how to respond to, either because they are
>vulgar or get off topic. Remember that every person that
>responds to your posting does not have to be answered. You
>have the choice to answer only those you feel comfortable
>with. There are some here that will take light hearted
>potshots at you and there are also a few that come across
>much more hostile. Remember, you have the final decision.


I wasn't referring to vulgarity, it's just that I wasn't sure if I should respond at all, etc. You answered the question though, thanks.

  

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rocketrobbieTue Apr-15-03 01:36 AM
Member since Feb 17th 2003
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#111. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 109)
Tue Apr-15-03 01:41 AM

  

          

I know you didn't mention vulgarity, I added that because when someone responds to your post by saying "how did you become a victim, by getting on your knees and blowing your Professor", I count that as vulgar and uncalled for.

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 08:37 AM
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#112. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 111)


          

>I know you didn't mention vulgarity, I added that because
>when someone responds to your post by saying "how did you
>become a victim, by getting on your knees and blowing your
>Professor", I count that as vulgar and uncalled for.


Now I understand what you meant! I'm sorry, I've been getting in such a tizzy about everything that my memory is fried

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:41 AM
Member since Mar 11th 2003
331 posts
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#110. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 89)


          

>You should never let any of our reponses affect you in such
>an adverse manner. Try to remember that even though you are
>having a heated discussion with fellow members, they are
>arguing with your username; you are still safe at home in
>front of your computer. God, 'lil Joe called me an ass
>today; no skin off my hiney. We are just two IP addresses
>passing in the night, so to speak.
>
>EDIT: Also, you said that some of the replies to your posts
>you don't know how to respond to, either because they are
>vulgar or get off topic. Remember that every person that
>responds to your posting does not have to be answered. You
>have the choice to answer only those you feel comfortable
>with. There are some here that will take light hearted
>potshots at you and there are also a few that come across
>much more hostile. Remember, you have the final decision.

I wasn't referring to vulgarity. It's just that I wasn't sure how to answer some things. You have answered the question, though. Thanks

  

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MykSun Apr-13-03 10:25 AM
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#90. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 88)


  

          

I think the reporter was fired for not getting permission to do an interview. He also spoke opinion as fact. And I think his firing came down to popular opinion, which is a proper thing to fire someone over who is on TV. If the majority of the US decides they won't watch a station because a particular person is on that station, the station should fire that person if they want to continue doing business.

These media types don't seem to realize that they have an audience to please. Even with news people they have to accept that even when speaking the truth sometimes the messenger gets killed because of the message.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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rocketrobbieSun Apr-13-03 10:37 AM
Member since Feb 17th 2003
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#91. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Myk (Reply # 90)


  

          

I totally agree. Even the greatest newscasters/anchors do not agree with every story they cover or report on but they still have a standard they must adhere to and they have to project an unbias opinion to the viewing public. Their personal opinions should only be shared with their spouse or loved ones at home and not at the "office".

  

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ShellySun Apr-13-03 11:02 PM
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#95. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Myk (Reply # 90)


  

          

>I think the reporter was fired for not getting permission to
>do an interview. He also spoke opinion as fact.

It was more than that, Myk. It was a reporter groveling in front of an official of a government we were at war with, for the sole purpose of begging them not to throw him out of Baghdad as his colleagues had been for reporting the truth.

He condemned himself with his own behavior, as a reporter who was more concerned with his self importance than with any regard for reporting the truth.

Shelly

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:27 AM
Member since Mar 11th 2003
331 posts
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#108. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 95)


          

>>I think the reporter was fired for not getting permission to
>>do an interview. He also spoke opinion as fact.
>
>It was more than that, Myk. It was a reporter groveling in
>front of an official of a government we were at war with,
>for the sole purpose of begging them not to throw him out of
>Baghdad as his colleagues had been for reporting the truth.
>
>He condemned himself with his own behavior, as a reporter
>who was more concerned with his self importance than with
>any regard for reporting the truth.


Whatever you say, Shelly.

  

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tpikdaveMon Apr-14-03 10:08 AM
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#100. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 88)
Mon Apr-14-03 10:10 AM

          

Jenn:

Uh Oh, You don't happen to live in Sacramento CA by any chance do you. I have a daughter named Jennifer there that is a Roman Catholic, and she doesn't like me either? Of course thats because her mother told her all those nasty lies about me.

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:19 AM
Member since Mar 11th 2003
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#107. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to tpikdave (Reply # 100)


          

>Jenn:
>
>Uh Oh, You don't happen to live in Sacramento CA by any
>chance do you. I have a daughter named Jennifer there that
>is a Roman Catholic, and she doesn't like me either? Of
>course thats because her mother told her all those nasty
>lies about me.

Nope. Not me, I live in Wisconsin

  

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81 NewbeeSun Apr-13-03 10:37 AM
Member since Dec 10th 2001
3409 posts
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#92. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 87)


  

          

Hey Jenn,Some times things happen that we can't explain.I was about to ask you if it was your religion that had the major influence in shaping your views and when I logged on you answered my query before I could ask.I am not one to comment or question anyones faith.I can understand where a lot of your views come from based on some Bishops letters recently.I was raised a Roman Catholic, been an Alter Boy, belonged to a Boy Scouts Of America troop sponsered by my parish.Later I was President of the Parish Mens Club and to prove that I was a Top Flight member I started running the weekly Bingo games that became a major fund raiser for the parish.The last obviously gives me a status you can understand. I am no longer active in the parish I now reside in .My wife holds down the religious fort for the family.I detect a note of distress in your messages that made me think that this was what influenced your views and hope I haven't been too crude in dissing yours. This may be repeating for those who have been here but here goes :I was recruited by The Beacon Peace Council in 1939 who apparently liked what I had written in the paper for my school and for the paper that hired me after I graduated. I don't know your age but in those days one of my heros was Charles Lindberg who defended Hitler.I had trouble understanding his views.The BPC sent me to a workshop at Lake Minawaska in New York State.There were several guys and gals about the same age from several countries.A man named Carl Voss started the session with a review of world situations.He assured us that now that Hitler had taken back the Sudeten land which they had been wrongly deprived of since WW1 ,he would no longer be a threat.the next day Hitler invaded Poland the sessions ended.That had a major effect on my thinking.I spent 4 years in the Army and I know what it is to be shot at and to kill or be killed.Many on this site have served and know first hand what a nasty busines war really is.There is NO glamor except in the movies .Grown men cry and you wonder when you pray if God really exists and you are afraid to doubt it.
I wondered why no one took out Hitler before he was able to do all the terrible things we later learned about.Thats why I don't think this is a war for oil or a Bush 2 for Bush 1 and all the other crap that is spouted.Am I worried about China becoming our opponent some day.HellYes!In the meantime It is time to stand up to the current crop of dictators and hopefully in doing so hope China comes around .You folks use the platitudes about why we don't we take on all the list of human rights violators while you piss(oops)about the fact that we are knocking off one right now.Would have you been any more in favor of it if it had been anyone of those you suggested.I think not.See where I come from?

81 Newbee

  

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rocketrobbieSun Apr-13-03 10:43 AM
Member since Feb 17th 2003
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#93. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 92)


  

          

1939??

You're not a Newbee.

  

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81 NewbeeMon Apr-14-03 04:15 AM
Member since Dec 10th 2001
3409 posts
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#96. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 93)


  

          

Only to computers.Born 5/31/20 which makes me a little younger than dirt.I doubt that it makes me a real antique and I,m surely not a "collectors "item.I am learning a lot about computers which is where I am a Newbie hence the NEWBEE sig.Love this place and the extended family on it.I learn a lot about human nature here as well which is very important to me.

81 Newbee

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:11 AM
Member since Mar 11th 2003
331 posts
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#105. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 92)
Tue Apr-15-03 12:24 AM

          

>Hey Jenn,Some times things happen that we can't explain.I
>was about to ask you if it was your religion that had the
>major influence in shaping your views and when I logged on
>you answered my query before I could ask.I am not one to
>comment or question anyones faith.I can understand where a
>lot of your views come from based on some Bishops letters
>recently.I was raised a Roman Catholic, been an Alter Boy,
>belonged to a Boy Scouts Of America troop sponsered by my
>parish.Later I was President of the Parish Mens Club and to
>prove that I was a Top Flight member I started running the
>weekly Bingo games that became a major fund raiser for the
>parish.The last obviously gives me a status you can
>understand. I am no longer active in the parish I now
>reside in .My wife holds down the religious fort for the
>family.I detect a note of distress in your messages that
>made me think that this was what influenced your views and
>hope I haven't been too crude in dissing yours. This may be
>repeating for those who have been here but here goes :I was
>recruited by The Beacon Peace Council in 1939 who apparently
>liked what I had written in the paper for my school and for
>the paper that hired me after I graduated. I don't know your
>age but in those days one of my heros was Charles Lindberg
>who defended Hitler.I had trouble understanding his
>views.The BPC sent me to a workshop at Lake Minawaska in New
>York State.There were several guys and gals about the same
>age from several countries.A man named Carl Voss started the
>session with a review of world situations.He assured us that
>now that Hitler had taken back the Sudeten land which they
>had been wrongly deprived of since WW1 ,he would no longer
>be a threat.the next day Hitler invaded Poland the sessions
>ended.That had a major effect on my thinking.I spent 4 years
>in the Army and I know what it is to be shot at and to kill
>or be killed.Many on this site have served and know first
>hand what a nasty busines war really is.There is NO glamor
>except in the movies .Grown men cry and you wonder when you
>pray if God really exists and you are afraid to doubt it.
>I wondered why no one took out Hitler before he was able to
>do all the terrible things we later learned about.Thats why
>I don't think this is a war for oil or a Bush 2 for Bush 1
>and all the other crap that is spouted.Am I worried about
>China becoming our opponent some day.HellYes!In the meantime
>It is time to stand up to the current crop of dictators and
>hopefully in doing so hope China comes around .You folks use
>the platitudes about why we don't we take on all the list of
>human rights violators while you piss(oops)about the fact
>that we are knocking off one right now.Would have you been
>any more in favor of it if it had been anyone of those you
>suggested.I think not.See where I come from?


you make some valid points.

  

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jennTue Apr-15-03 12:13 AM
Member since Mar 11th 2003
331 posts
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#106. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 92)


          

>Hey Jenn,Some times things happen that we can't explain.I
>was about to ask you if it was your religion that had the
>major influence in shaping your views and when I logged on
>you answered my query before I could ask.I am not one to
>comment or question anyones faith.I can understand where a
>lot of your views come from based on some Bishops letters
>recently.I was raised a Roman Catholic, been an Alter Boy,
>belonged to a Boy Scouts Of America troop sponsered by my
>parish.Later I was President of the Parish Mens Club and to
>prove that I was a Top Flight member I started running the
>weekly Bingo games that became a major fund raiser for the
>parish.The last obviously gives me a status you can
>understand. I am no longer active in the parish I now
>reside in .My wife holds down the religious fort for the
>family.I detect a note of distress in your messages that
>made me think that this was what influenced your views and
>hope I haven't been too crude in dissing yours. This may be
>repeating for those who have been here but here goes :I was
>recruited by The Beacon Peace Council in 1939 who apparently
>liked what I had written in the paper for my school and for
>the paper that hired me after I graduated. I don't know your
>age but in those days one of my heros was Charles Lindberg
>who defended Hitler.I had trouble understanding his
>views.The BPC sent me to a workshop at Lake Minawaska in New
>York State.There were several guys and gals about the same
>age from several countries.A man named Carl Voss started the
>session with a review of world situations.He assured us that
>now that Hitler had taken back the Sudeten land which they
>had been wrongly deprived of since WW1 ,he would no longer
>be a threat.the next day Hitler invaded Poland the sessions
>ended.That had a major effect on my thinking.I spent 4 years
>in the Army and I know what it is to be shot at and to kill
>or be killed.Many on this site have served and know first
>hand what a nasty busines war really is.There is NO glamor
>except in the movies .Grown men cry and you wonder when you
>pray if God really exists and you are afraid to doubt it.
>I wondered why no one took out Hitler before he was able to
>do all the terrible things we later learned about.Thats why
>I don't think this is a war for oil or a Bush 2 for Bush 1
>and all the other crap that is spouted.Am I worried about
>China becoming our opponent some day.HellYes!In the meantime
>It is time to stand up to the current crop of dictators and
>hopefully in doing so hope China comes around .You folks use
>the platitudes about why we don't we take on all the list of
>human rights violators while you piss(oops)about the fact
>that we are knocking off one right now.Would have you been
>any more in favor of it if it had been anyone of those you
>suggested.I think not.See where I come from?


I do see your point,yes.

  

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teloMon Apr-14-03 06:45 AM
Charter member
1716 posts
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#97. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to jenn (Reply # 0)


  

          

I think civilian casualties in this war have been very low. Yes killing civilians is evil, but it is still the lesser of two evils. In this case it is also temporary and a by-product of the solution to eliminating the ongoing greater evil. The surviving 99.999% of the civilians in Iraq will finally find out what it means to be free.

You are getting sleepy, very sleepy...

  

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rocketrobbieMon Apr-14-03 07:07 AM
Member since Feb 17th 2003
1598 posts
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#98. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to TeLo (Reply # 97)


  

          

I wouldn't say that the killing of civilians by Coalition forces is evil, a tragedy yes, but not evil. The US did not purposefully kill innocent civilians. A war zone is a very dangerous environment and, unfortunately, these things do happen.

  

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teloMon Apr-14-03 07:21 AM
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#99. "RE: The other side of the war"
In response to rocketrobbie (Reply # 98)


  

          

Yes. I shoud have said "may be viewed as evil".

You are getting sleepy, very sleepy...

  

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