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scaramoucheSat Mar-01-03 05:27 AM
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"For those who oppose the war in Iraq"


  

          

Reading this article might change your anti-war views. Well, maybe not Hal.

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id={7595025C-DB3F-4C84-B6A8-BEE212B64BE1}

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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BackflipSat Mar-01-03 05:34 AM
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#1. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)
Sat Mar-01-03 06:14 AM

  

          

Yes an interesting article, I read it in the Telegraph when it first appeared. There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam is evil, almost beyond belief, but Iraq isn't, and for me...aye there's the nub, to steal from Shakespeare.



  

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ukmitchSat Mar-01-03 05:36 AM
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#2. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

This monster's complete disregard for humanity ranks him alongside Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

And how he's enjoying it, and I mean enjoying it. With the support of France, Germany and those other two noted guardians of world peace and human kindness, Russia and China.

Outrageous!!



Mitch

  

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robert70Sun Mar-02-03 11:22 AM
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#46. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 2)


          

>>"text-decoration=none; font-size=small"]This monster's
>complete disregard for humanity ranks him alongside Hitler,
>Stalin and Pol Pot.
>
>And how he's enjoying it, and I mean enjoying it. With the
>support of France, Germany and those other two noted
>guardians of world peace and human kindness, Russia and
>China.
>
>Outrageous!!


Mitch: I do not think he is the only one enjoying this war on terrorism.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2002/1111disorder.htm

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 06:02 AM
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#3. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

Yes, and he was embraced as the great friend and ally of both the US and Britain. Your continued wanton refusal to look a the complete picture really pisses me off.

The US backed KLO, committed brutal tortures in Yugoslavia. Chile's Pinochet, another US backed dictator tortured and murdered thousands. Many were tortured at a field while everyone watched. One man was a guitar player who's hands were cut off. They threw the guitar back at him, told him to play and laughed before they killed him.

Turkey, the scene of some of the worst atrocities of 1990s. Millions of people were driven out of the devastated countryside, with tens of thousands killed and every imaginable form of barbaric torture.  They try to survive in caves outside the walls of Diyarbakir, in condemned buildings in miserable slums in Istanbul, or wherever they can find refuge. Eighty percent of the weapons came from the US.  In 1997 alone, Clinton sent more arms to Turkey than in the entire Cold War period combined up to the onset of the state terror campaign – called “counterterror” by the perpetrators and their supporters, another convention.  Turkey became the leading recipient of US arms.

Colombia achieved the worst human rights record in the Western hemisphere in the 1990s and was by far the leading recipient of US arms and military training, and now leads the world.  It also leads the world by other measures, for example, murder of labor activists: more than half of those killed worldwide in the last decade were in Colombia. Close to ½ million people were driven from their land last year, a new record.  The displaced population is now estimated at 2.7 million.  Political killings have risen to 20 a day; 5 years ago it was half that.

The US continues to supply Israel with billions in arms while they have committed atrocities against the Palestinians who they hold under illegal occupation in violation of numerous UN resolutions, just like Iraq is suppose to be guilty of.

  

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ukmitchSat Mar-01-03 06:09 AM
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#4. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 3)


  

          

>"Your continued wanton refusal to look a the complete picture really pisses me off."<

I'm so desperately sorry that this should be so, Hal. My humble apologies.

Know you know what it feels like.......................



Mitch

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 06:15 AM
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#5. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 4)


          

I'll bet you and scaramouche are sipping tea together right now...chuckling--with your little fingers extended.

  

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ukmitchSat Mar-01-03 06:28 AM
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#7. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

Don't drink tea Hal.

But I do drive a Honda Accord - and I also watch TV, mostly Fox News, which Christopher Columbus brought back here from The New World.



Mitch

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 06:31 AM
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#8. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 7)


          

How did I know that.

  

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scaramoucheSat Mar-01-03 06:48 AM
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#10. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

>I'll bet you and scaramouche are sipping tea together right
>now...chuckling--with your little fingers extended.

I'm looking at you now with my middle figer extended. Actually that's what I was tempted to say, but will refrain.
}>

BTW I was not endorsing the article. Just put it out for discussion. I, for one, do believe the veracity of the story.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 07:02 AM
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#11. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 10)


          

"BTW I was not endorsing the article. Just put it out for
discussion. I, for one, do believe the veracity of the story."


You're not endorsing it, you just put it out and do believe in it. Someone needs a bitch slappin.'

  

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scaramoucheSat Mar-01-03 07:48 AM
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#12. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 11)
Sat Mar-01-03 07:59 AM

  

          

I meant you can believe what you wish. after all you belong to, what I term "the axis of ignorance". }>

I marvel at your type of person, Hal. Never travelled, I suspect by your views, beyond the safe cocoon of the US, quick to use the Constitution of the US, which you criticize, to defend your views (freedom of speech).

In countries like Iraq (which you are defending), China, Vietnam, North Korea you would have electrodes attached to your testicles (actually I would approve just to teach you a lesson) and either you would have the same views(in a higher pitched voice) or still defend your tormentors (in a higher pitched voice). BTW the Vietcong did that in the Vietnam War.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 01:11 PM
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#19. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 12)
Sat Mar-01-03 01:27 PM

          

And you with all your bragged about worldly knowledge, continue to ignore the lies, deception and hypocrisy standing naked before you. And to top it off asshole, not only are you willfully blind, but you arrogantly profess to see clearly and cast aspersions at those who really do. You haven't a clue what I'm talking about and confuse my critical thinking of America's hypocrisy and their support of oppressive regimes and dictators around the world with me advocating the support of those same regimes and dictators.

I haven't forgotten your insensitive posts regarding Arab Americans in which you questioned their allegiance with stupid and sweeping generalizations by implying that they were a security risk because they all will ultimately seek allegiance to their Arab homeland, wherever that might be. You should know better, considering you yourself are an immigrant to this country. Fifty years ago, it may just as well have been Asians that would be under constant scrutiny instead of Arabs.

You're one of those weak little punks that joins in with the crowd to throw stones at the outcasts once he's been accepted. You don't fool me for minute. I worked the street for almost fifteen years, and believe me, if I were in the same room with you, I'd never turn my back on you.

  

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scaramoucheSat Mar-01-03 01:33 PM
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#20. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)
Sat Mar-01-03 01:37 PM

  

          

Hal, face it you are one bombastic bastard full of hot air and self righteous sayings full of fire and thunder signifying nothing. Actually I'm beginning to enjoy insulting you back after all the personal posts you made about me.

You are the type of coward that, if he were not scared, would probably go to Iraq as a human shield. }>

Actually Post #13 is someone else's words. Think for yourself man cause I'm beginning to think your Head is just meant to keep your two ears apart. }>

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 01:41 PM
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#22. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 20)


          

I freely admit to being one bombastic bastard you ignorant little shit. BTW, do you realize that idiotic canine looks like it just fell off someone's keychain?

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 02:22 PM
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#25. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 20)
Sat Mar-01-03 02:26 PM

          



LOL, whose words are in the article you linked to on the initial post you made on this thread? You're even dumber than you think I think you are.

  

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MykSat Mar-01-03 01:37 PM
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#21. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


  

          

I must give you credit, Hal. You're not the typical Liberal who starts an argument and then claim foul play when everyone doesn't agree with you.
You do however fall in with typically calling names when someone doesn't agree with you, but at least you don't cry foul like most.

I thought scar was in Canada so I don't know how things were for him. But if they were anything like they were around here after the war was over, he experienced worse than constant scrutiny.

I wasn't a street walker like you but I have been around. You're one of the pukes who throws stones at anyone who disagrees with you. You're one of those who goes out of their way to not be accepted.
There's hope for those who go along to get along (which I don't think scar is one of). There is no hope for your kind who throw stones just to see the look on someone's face when they get hit. Turn a back on you? I avoid being in the same room with people like you.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 01:57 PM
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#23. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Myk (Reply # 21)
Sat Mar-01-03 01:58 PM

          

I don't really give a shit what you think. I've got both of your narrow minded ass's pegged. I've taken more unprovoked shit in here than you and him put together ten times over and most of the time I've done it with humor. I don't loose my temper in here often and even with all the names Al's called me, I've lost my temper with him once. At least Al--even in his convoluted way--always addresses the issues half intelligently.

You're just a know-it-all gun totter with just enough 2nd Amendment knowledge to make you dangerous. You haven't got the faintest idea what it means to "Live Free or Die."

You're a fraud.

  

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doctormidnightSat Mar-01-03 02:02 PM
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#24. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 23)


  

          

Hey, Captain Grumpy.. check you PM }>

  

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MykSat Mar-01-03 07:18 PM
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#26. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 23)


  

          

You forgot the part about me being out to get you.
I remember when you tried to include me in your axis of ignorance because I was disagreeing with someone who dared go against you. Lo and behold, as soon as I told you what I thought, you started throwing rocks.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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scaramoucheSun Mar-02-03 12:34 AM
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#37. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 23)
Sun Mar-02-03 12:35 AM

  

          

>I don't really give a shit what you think. I've got both of
>your narrow minded ass's pegged. I've taken more unprovoked
>shit in here than you and him put together ten times over
>and most of the time I've done it with humor.
..............................................................

You have your views Hal but you should also learn to respect another viewpoint, instead of resorting to namecalling. This is the first post that I've resorted to personally attacking you for the "self righteous, pompous, I'm-always-right, ignoramous that you are.
................................................................
I don't loose
>my temper in here often and even with all the names Al's
>called me, I've lost my temper with him once. At least
>Al--even in his convoluted way--always addresses the issues
>half intelligently.
...........................................................

I used to think consider you a kind of sideshow here, a sort of bearded lady in a circus. Harmless entertainment, but I've realised, that, unlike others, who have a different point of view and express it, you are one mean, vicious SOB.
..........................................................

>
>You're just a know-it-all gun totter with just enough 2nd
>Amendment knowledge to make you dangerous. You haven't got
>the faintest idea what it means to "Live Free or Die."
>
>You're a fraud.

........................................................

What's a gun totter?
...........................................................

I'm not a great supporter of the US foreign Policy and neither am I a great fan of GWB, but I'm also looking at the alternative out there in the real world. When I see countries like Libya, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, to name a few, the US with all its warts becomes very appealing.

Your problem, Hal, is you only look at one side of the argument, your side.

Actually I would encourage you to travel to some of those countries. It might give you a different viewpoint.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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AlSat Mar-01-03 08:49 PM
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#27. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


  

          

>you arrogantly profess to
>see clearly and cast aspersions at those who really do.


I hope the above isn't a reference to yourself, HAL. You may have 20/20 vision, and if so, that is the only clear seeing you do.



  

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observerSat Mar-01-03 09:36 PM
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#31. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 12)


          

".....North Korea you would have electrodes attached to your testicles (actually I would approve just to teach you a lesson"

Statements like this prove just how you and your other rightwing friends really feel about freedom. The thin veneer of freedom rubs off easily with just a little debate and what shows beneath is a core of ignorance, propaganda and dogma. I rarely hear a good argument from any of you, so much so that I'm sometimes tempted to take up 'the right' instead of hearing the same stupid points from you bunch over and over again.

If this war was about securing freedom for the people of Iraq I would support it. The truth is that while the administration uses these words to describe it's mission they are at the same time planning or are actively involved in the oppression of millions of others.

  

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MykSat Mar-01-03 09:48 PM
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#32. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to observer (Reply # 31)


  

          

Going after Hitler had very little to do with the death camps. But was their removal such a terrible outcome just because it wasn't the real goal?

The wish to give Hal a taste of real oppression is just something to teach him that he doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykSat Mar-01-03 10:25 AM
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#15. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 3)


  

          

If I was being tortured and there was someone like you who was setting out to hinder anyone from helping me because they wanted to see "the big picture" instead, that would really piss me off.

But when it's over one way or another and pictures start coming out of Iraq and you see a Kurd or Shi'ite child who's been tortured, you can ignore that little picture and sleep well knowing that you wanted to see the big one.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 11:31 AM
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#16. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Myk (Reply # 15)
Sat Mar-01-03 11:35 AM

          

There's absolutely no logic in what you just posted. You choose to deliberately distort and twist reality for the sake of argument. You're more interested in creating what you think is a cleverly worded post, than in seeing the hypocrisy and true motive on behalf of the Bush Administration's planned pre-emptive strike on Iraq. I'll bet you never even bothered to read post #13. People like you stand in the way of themselves and thier ability to see clearly for the sake of gratifying thier own ego.

  

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MykSat Mar-01-03 12:26 PM
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#18. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 16)


  

          

"There's absolutely no logic in what you just posted"

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. When have you ever used logic in your posts?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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AlSat Mar-01-03 08:52 PM
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#28. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 16)


  

          

And you would stop anyone from doing anything that helps any other nation because of the "self interest" factor. HAL, you really need help. Visit a mental health professional. Really.



  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 12:20 PM
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#17. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Myk (Reply # 15)


          

The mayor of a rich and powerful town supplies a thug in another town with money and guns for the thug to kill and torture its town's citizens. The mayor approaches other thugs in other towns to do the same thing. Then he prints a story about one of the thugs evil doings and announces that his Police department is going to machine gun the shit out of the thugs town, take control of it and let whoever happens to live, roam free.

Go back to sleep Myk.

  

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robert70Sat Mar-01-03 10:40 PM
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#33. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Myk (Reply # 15)


          

>If I was being tortured and there was someone like you who
>was setting out to hinder anyone from helping me because
>they wanted to see "the big picture" instead, that would
>really piss me off.

Are you now saying you are a human rights advocate? This site may help your campaign.

http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=21

>
>But when it's over one way or another and pictures start
>coming out of Iraq and you see a Kurd or Shi'ite child who's
>been tortured, you can ignore that little picture and sleep
>well knowing that you wanted to see the big one.

You seem fixated on only one country, and have a willingness to overlook that the US supports, or attempts to buy, alliances with countries like Turkey which have been noted for their human rights violations against the Kurds that live within Turkey.
Maybe you could also explain why the US was (is) not a member of the countries that supported the world "War Courts" resolution.

  

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observerSat Mar-01-03 06:15 AM
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#6. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

I'm highly suspect of anything from Conrad Black and his bloody wife Barbara Amiel. They are the worst rightwing jerks imaginable.

  

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BackflipSat Mar-01-03 06:38 AM
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#9. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to observer (Reply # 6)


  

          

I'm sure they are one of the reasons why the Telegraph is losing readership. At one time it represented the paternalistic (Tory) wing of the conservative party, but it seems now to be moving to a position the Times(conservative wing ) had, more hard core. I doubt that many Church of England clergy will read it now, it used to be 'their' paper.



  

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hal9000Sat Mar-01-03 07:51 AM
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#13. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

"(Saddam has ) ...dominated Iraq for about 30 years. In that time he's initiated two wars. He did attack Iran in 1980, but revolutionary Iran was the real aggressor, and we supported his efforts to combat Iranian expansionism. He also invaded Kuwait in 1990, but only after we had signaled that we wouldn't oppose this. Containment didn't fail, it wasn't tried. Moreover, he has never gone to war in the face of a clear deterrent threat. He's a cruel tyrant, but not a serial aggressor. Similarly, Saddam has never used WMD against anyone who could retaliate. He didn't use them against us in 1991, and he hasn't used them since, even though we have bombed his country repeatedly since then. Why? Because he's deterred...."

"...Saddam cannot blackmail us with nuclear weapons or other WMD. Why? Because he knows we could destroy him if he tried to carry out the threat. And of course we know it too. As Condi Rice wrote in Foreign Affairs, "Iraq's WMD would be unusable, because any attempt to use them would bring national obliteration." You might also remember that the Soviet Union had thousands of nuclear weapons pointed right at us, was governed by tyrants and mass murderers, yet they couldn't use them for blackmail or regional expansion. So why does the Bush administration think Saddam can blackmail us if he got his hands on a few?"

"...Saddam will not give WMD to al Qaeda. There is still no credible evidence, even after this afternoon, of cooperation between Iraq and al Qaeda, even though the Bush administration has worked overtime trying to find it, and put great pressure on American intelligence agencies to come up with the correct answer. Even Ken Pollack has termed this evidence, quote, "Tenuous and inconsequential." More importantly, Saddam would have nothing to gain from doing this, and everything to lose. He could accomplish no positive purpose by giving WMD away, and he knows we would retaliate decisively if we caught him trying to do it. Giving WMD to terrorists in literally the last thing he would ever do. The bottom line is that the threat from Iraq is too small to justify preventive war...."

"Remember, the Bush administration has said it's willing to leave Saddam Hussein a tyrant in power if he disarms, which means liberation is in fact a red herring being used to cover up the fact that there's such a weak strategic rationale. We should also remember that we support plenty of other governments with brutal human rights records, which further suggest that this is not the real reason for war. Moreover, being democracy to Iraq will take years, if not decades...."

Radical change is as likely to open the door to Islamic extremists as to bring liberals to power. We are playing with fire in doing this. Our invasion will resurrect images of colonialism, and fuel even greater anger at the United States. And just remember, we didn't liberate Eastern Europe by invading it, we did it by patient containment..."

"War is likely to increase anti-Americanism in the Arab and Islamic world, make it easier for a bin Laden to recruit new followers. It will divert time, money and attention from the effort against al Qaeda. It's doing that already. Look at the amount of time, effort and political capital we are putting into this, while the majority of al Qaeda leaders are still at large, still planning new attacks...."

"...it will jeopardize international support for the broader war on terrorism. The image of the United States in the world has declined steadily as we get closer to war, especially in those countries whose arms we have been twisting to get them to go along. This is not a coalition of the willing, it's a coalition of the coerced, the cowed, and the co-opted. Launching an unprovoked war will reinforce the growing perception that the United States is a bully, make it harder for us to get the cooperation we need. On the day we go to war, Osama bin Laden will be smiling...."

----Steve Walt, a Professor at the Kennedy School at Harvard

  

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JohnnySat Mar-01-03 09:04 AM
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#14. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 13)


  

          

"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

  

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PointmanSat Mar-01-03 09:24 PM
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#29. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

Four million Iraqis are supposedly living in exile while 26 million or so are still in Iraq. Isn't that a high percentage? Wouldn't that be like 37 million people living in exile from the US?

Surely, out of 4 million exiles, some of them would hate to see a war happen in their mother country and be willing to join the anti-war demonstrations. Has anyone seen the Iraqi contingent of the anti-war movement? Wouldn't the Iraqi exiles, above all others, be showcased worldwide by the anti-war crowd? Do you think those Iraqi exiles know something those demonstrators don't?



Pointman

  

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AlSat Mar-01-03 09:36 PM
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#30. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 29)


  

          

You might think so...



  

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robert70Sat Mar-01-03 10:47 PM
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#34. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 29)
Sat Mar-01-03 11:00 PM

          

>Four million Iraqis are supposedly living in exile while 26
>million or so are still in Iraq. Isn't that a high
>percentage? Wouldn't that be like 37 million people living
>in exile from the US?
>
>Surely, out of 4 million exiles, some of them would hate to
>see a war happen in their mother country and be willing to
>join the anti-war demonstrations. Has anyone seen the Iraqi
>contingent of the anti-war movement? Wouldn't the Iraqi
>exiles, above all others, be showcased worldwide by the
>anti-war crowd? Do you think those Iraqi exiles know
>something those demonstrators don't?

Have you actively sought out the information that you are looking for or are you waiting for CNN to spoon feed you? I am sure I'll find something for you shortly - Stand by.

Here is a start
http://www.notinournames.org.uk/exiles/

  

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PointmanSat Mar-01-03 11:12 PM
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#35. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 34)


          

>"...are you waiting for CNN to spoon feed you?"

I usually scan several news sources, so you know where you can park your spoon.

Pointman

  

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robert70Sat Mar-01-03 11:18 PM
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#36. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 35)


          

>>"...are you waiting for CNN to spoon feed you?"
>
>I usually scan several news sources, so you know where you
>can park your spoon.

No insult intended but here is another unfindable link.

http://www.acttogether.org/who&why.htm

  

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AlSun Mar-02-03 06:36 AM
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#38. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 36)


  

          

The link you came up with could have ONE Iraqi woman as a member for all that is actually given at that link. The link to "Iraqis in Exile" lists FOUR.

Leaves about 3,999,995 to be accounted for.



  

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81 NewbeeSun Mar-02-03 09:22 AM
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#39. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 38)


  

          

Wow HAL,2564 posts and now they drip with MALICE!Surely you don't need to resort to name calling to make your point.You go from quoting from the Psalms to me, to hateful speech.I am DISAPPOINTED in you. Now that you have an ally in Observer you have changed your tone.I had no objection to your sarcasm about my posts but you certainly lower your status when you lose your cool.
Now you can think of something nasty to answer me with if you like but my opinion of your methods lost a lot in this thread.I frequently did not agree with your opinions but admired your ability to make your case.The old polite and cleverly obnoxious Hal suited you much better.}> }>

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sun Mar-02-03 09:43 AM
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#40. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 39)


          

I wasn't aware I had any status here other than being considered the Fringe Element, or delusional, or an idiot, or a blowhard with a web site, or the axis of ignorance, or a conspiracy freak, or the litany of other names people cast my way. Why just a few threads ago you referred to me as Hitler. I wonder why you'd choose to hold me to such lofty standards?

  

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hal9000Sun Mar-02-03 09:47 AM
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#41. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 39)


          

Why don't you mosey on over the "I wanna live in a perfect world thread" and see who you can hold accountable over there.

  

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robert70Sun Mar-02-03 09:51 AM
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#42. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 38)
Sun Mar-02-03 10:57 AM

          

>The link you came up with could have ONE Iraqi woman as a
>member for all that is actually given at that link. The link
>to "Iraqis in Exile" lists FOUR.
>
Something must be amiss because when I click "Online Petition" then "View Signatures" the count is 47012. (link in post #34)

It is indeed possible that only one person in the second link may be an Iraqi exile, but I think I have made my point that if you are waiting to see these links on CNN it is advisable not to hold your breath.

or maybe on second thought... (Only joking folks!)

  

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hal9000Sun Mar-02-03 09:54 AM
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#43. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 36)


          

Excellent article Bob. I hope people choose to read it.

  

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81 NewbeeSun Mar-02-03 10:31 AM
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#44. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 43)


  

          

Hal,I called you Hitler?? Refresh this old memorey.Because if I did I owe you a public apology!!!!

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sun Mar-02-03 11:26 AM
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#47. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 44)
Sun Mar-02-03 11:29 AM

          

Correction, sorry, it was "Nazi propoganda boss." But I think you get my drift. I've done my share of name calling but I'm certainly not alone. I get it from all sides--if people can dish it out they better be able to take it from me now and then. Especially when you consider that some people go out of their way just to drop by and take a few shots at Hal9000. You know who they are as well as I. They contribute nothing constructive, nothing to add to a discussion--just innuendo for a cheap sadistic thrill. And I also read cowardly indirect comments directed at me in threads I'm not even part of. Just cheap shots by little cowardly weasels.

I don't mind your inane babble Newbee, but take your judge and jury routine somewhere else.

  

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AlSun Mar-02-03 12:12 PM
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#48. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 47)


  

          

You can still find an island and set up your own nation of one, HAL...



  

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hal9000Sun Mar-02-03 12:30 PM
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#49. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 48)


          

LOL! That was really a good one.

  

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81 NewbeeMon Mar-03-03 10:49 AM
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#52. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 47)


  

          

Why Hal,I figured a guy who likes to push the ideas you do would have much thicker skin.As for my moving to other threads,I still find the ones you start interesting and I really believed you were actually inviting controversy as one who, mimiced the skill of that successful Nazi propagandist I compared you, to enjoyed the repartee.The tone of your reply made it sound like you were feeling sorry for yourself because people berated you.If that is the case in the words of one of the best bosses I ever worked for.."IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SYMPATHY,YOU CAN FIND IT BETWEEN SHIT AND SYPHILLIS IN THE DICTIONARY"
I still wonder what you drive.

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Mon Mar-03-03 12:04 PM
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#53. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 52)


          

LOL!

I want you to set yourself and your trailer on fire.

  

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waldoThu May-22-03 01:53 AM
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#83. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 44)


  

          

What Hitler drove!WALDO


Walter A Robertson

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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81 NewbeeSun Mar-02-03 11:09 AM
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#45. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to waldo (Reply # 83)


  

          

Waldo,Could it be that H....?NO perish the thought.I refuse to let that even enter my mind for a second.}> }>

81 Newbee

  

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PointmanMon Mar-03-03 12:57 AM
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#50. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 36)


          

Wouldn't genuine Iraqi exiles, against the war, be instantly be showcased worldwide by all of the news sources and not just a couple of obscure web pages? Would they not be interviewed by an endless stream of media stars? And, wouldn't their participation in demonstrations combined with their personal stories carry so much more weight than a collection of middle eastern names on a petition?

Though, it might be worthwhile to hear from the exiles, who WANT to see Iraq liberated, it would be understandable if they were too busy looking over their shoulders or worrying about family they may have had to leave behind.







Pointman

  

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robert70Mon Mar-03-03 08:00 AM
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#51. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 50)


          

>Wouldn't genuine Iraqi exiles, against the war, be instantly
>be showcased worldwide by all of the news sources and not
>just a couple of obscure web pages? Would they not be
>interviewed by an endless stream of media stars? And,
>wouldn't their participation in demonstrations combined with
>their personal stories carry so much more weight than a
>collection of middle eastern names on a petition?
>
>Though, it might be worthwhile to hear from the exiles, who
>WANT to see Iraq liberated, it would be understandable if
>they were too busy looking over their shoulders or worrying
>about family they may have had to leave behind.

Both of the mentioned web sites have contact addresses. I am sure that a polite inquiry such as your would bring about a response.
If I told you why - many readers would just accuse me of making it up.

  

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PointmanMon Mar-03-03 04:12 PM
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#54. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 51)


          

"Both of the mentioned web sites have contact addresses. I am sure that a polite inquiry such as your would bring about a response."

You seem to have a good measure of confidence in the validity of those names. You must have contacted some of them, right? What size sampling did you choose? Did any turn out to be something other than concerned Iraqis?

"If I told you why - many readers would just accuse me of making it up."

If you promised to not "make it up", why wouldn't the nice folks here give you a fair hearing? You really won't know how worthwhile your explanation is, until you share it with us, will you?





Pointman

  

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XenosTue Mar-04-03 05:17 AM
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#55. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 54)
Tue Mar-04-03 05:18 AM

          

When I listen to left wingers talk about their reasons for opposing this war, it has as much to do with their elitist belief that GW Bush is stupid and mean as anything else. It rarely has anything to do with honest to god facts. How often in these arguments have those that want war been characterized and unintellegent or stupid? Do you know what kind of formal fallacy that is in logic? It's an abusive ad hominem attack. It's not a basis for rational debate. It's either that we're war mongers or stupid or evil nazis that want to take over the world. Observations that don't have any basis in 20th and 21st century history. All of the countries that the US have defeated or helped to defeat in all of the wars since 1900 have gone on to self determination in their governing processes. They are ruled by their own people. Not shadow ruled by the US. In fact, several of those countries are directly opposed to our actions in Iraq right now, which only goes to prove the point.

You know what kills me? How the style in which we should justify this changes constantly. The original treaty after the gulf war laid out terms that Saddam wasn't allowed to violate and if he did the UN not only had the right, but an OBLIGATION to once force once again. Violating no fly zones, constant interference with weapons inspectors and their ultimate expulsion, missle attacks on our aircraft. All of these were violations that obligated the UN to do something and they just sit on their thumbs. So Saddam gets ten years to rebuild his powerbase and his WMD capabilities. He doesn't even have to attempt to hide anything after he expels the weapons inspectors permanently in 1998. So then 9/11 happens and after we deal with Afghanistan we turn towards Saddam again. Now a new resolution is needed, so we get it. It says that he has to make a declaration and be inspected. First his declaration is clearly lacking because it's missing all sorts of weapons that UN inspectors had already found after the Gulf War. Secondly, the UN inspectors find warheads that have chemical residues in them and Saddam can't account for where the chemicals have disappeared to. He just laughs and shrugs his shoulders. Now the anti war factions of the UN are drawing up ANOTHER resolution to allowed the inspections to continue on different terms to give Saddam another chance. "War should be a last resort." When do we get to that point? When does the UN find it's backbone and dictate real terms to this nutjob? This guy should be on trial for war crimes, but the UN would rather send him pieces of paper saying, in effect, "would you mind stopping?" Saddam is playing cat and mouse with the UN. 10+ years of nothing should prove that point, but the UN seems content to give him 10 more and the worst part is that our supposedly allies are conspiring with Saddam to prolong his brutal rulership. They appear to enjoy watching him thumb his nose at the US. Do you all doubt that he would be willing to use these weapons against the US? Do you think appeasement actually works? Have you ever read your history? Why don't you look at which country has complied with the requests of the UN and the world opinion in these matters. Saddam breaks resolution after resolution. The US, albeit grudgingly, submits to all of the requests to use the UN. We've given Saddam so many chances and options to disarm and be reasonable and he hasn't. It's never going to end with that guy, until he's gone.

So who demands more attention than Iraq? North Korea? For all the horrid leadership Kim Il Jong has shown, he's never attacked another country. You'd get some sympathy from me on Iran, but the truth is that they haven't been nearly as evil since the Ayatollah died. They've attempted to move towards democracy and even allowed demonstrations by the people on occassion. Their rulingship has been slowly moving away from the hardline bit by bit. Contrary to how it might sound, I don't want a war with every single country on the planet. I just want to be safer and I don't think we have to attack every country on the planet that hates us to accomplish this.



"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 05:45 AM
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#56. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Xenos (Reply # 55)


          

All of the countries that the US have defeated or helped to defeat in all of the wars since 1900 have gone on to self determination in their governing processes. They are ruled by their own people. Not shadow ruled by the US. In fact, several of those countries are directly opposed to our actions in Iraq right now, which only goes to prove the point.

Bullshit! How about Batista in Cuba, Somoza in Nicaragua, the Shah in Iran, Salazar in Portugal, Marcos in the Philippines, Pinochet in Chile, Zia in Pakistan, Evren in Turkey, and even Pol Pot in Cambodia.

Or in the 1965 Indonesian coup, the military slaughtered 500,000 people, according to the Indonesian chief of security (New York Times, 12/21/77; some estimates run twice as high), this didn't deter US leaders from assisting in that takeover or from maintaining cozy relations with the same Jakarta regime that subsequently perpetuated a campaign of repression and mass extermination in East Timor.

  

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XenosTue Mar-04-03 06:28 AM
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#58. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 56)


          

I will get back to your post Hal. I am busy at the moment. Trust me Keep up the arguments, I love a challenge. Cheers!

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 06:31 AM
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#59. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Xenos (Reply # 58)


          

No rush...take your time

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 06:45 AM
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#60. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 56)


  

          

Might want to look at Nicaragua and the Philippines again, HAL.

And I'd say Cuba determined its own destiny as well...

Maybe you should reread what was written. I don't see any of those countries as US colonies, do you?



  

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scaramoucheTue Mar-04-03 06:27 AM
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#57. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Xenos (Reply # 55)


  

          

>When I listen to left wingers talk about their reasons for
>opposing this war, it has as much to do with their elitist
>belief that GW Bush is stupid and mean as anything else. It
>rarely has anything to do with honest to god facts.

..........................................................

Its very easy to dismiss people who oppose war as left wing radicals. Maybe they just don't like dying and death, especially when they are going to be the ones dying.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 06:52 AM
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#61. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 57)


  

          

Hmmm..haven't seen many soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines being against a war on Iraq. Most of them just want to get it over with.

The "shields" have fled, so they aren't at risk anymore....

And those who oppose a war with Iraq claim that Saddam isn't a threat to anyone...so how many of those opposed could be worried about dying from a war?

Most interesting thing I have seen are reports from inside Iraq that indicate that Iraqi citizens are looking forward to the war. Food, medical care, an opportunity for commerce...seems that all those POWs we took and released in the first Gulf War have spread the word about humanitarian treatment.



  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 06:59 AM
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#62. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 61)


          

They're looking forward to getting Saddam out, not war.

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 07:00 AM
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#63. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 62)


  

          

Seems they also realize the only way that will happen.



  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 07:02 AM
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#64. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 63)


          

So far about 250,000 Iraqis have fled into Jordan.

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 07:11 AM
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#65. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 64)


  

          

Smart.



  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 07:31 AM
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#66. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 65)
Tue Mar-04-03 07:31 AM

          

Yes.

  

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robert70Tue Mar-04-03 08:26 AM
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#67. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 54)


          

>"Both of the mentioned web sites have contact addresses. I
>am sure that a polite inquiry such as your would bring about
>a response."
>
>You seem to have a good measure of confidence in the
>validity of those names. You must have contacted some of
>them, right? What size sampling did you choose? Did any turn
>out to be something other than concerned Iraqis?
>
>"If I told you why - many readers would just accuse me of
>making it up."
>
>If you promised to not "make it up", why wouldn't the nice
>folks here give you a fair hearing? You really won't know
>how worthwhile your explanation is, until you share it with
>us, will you?

Was it not you who said he did not need to be spoon fed and told me where to shove the spoon. It appears like you now want me (after finding you sites that express views you wished to hear) to retrieve the spoon, do the research for you and again spoon feed ya.
If you would care to PM me your email address I will do my utmost to get as many of those signatures to respond to your questions as possible.

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 09:08 AM
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#68. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 67)


  

          

Robert,

You do realize there is no way to tell if those signatures are from Iraqi refugees?



  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 10:39 AM
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#70. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 68)


  

          

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins021902.shtml

Note the last paragraph:


Saddam's former chief of staff, Nazar Khazraji, living in exile in Denmark since 1999, believes that 95 percent of the Iraqi population oppose Saddam, and are only waiting for a signal from the international community. When a German interviewer asked him, "Are you, as an Iraqi, seriously calling for U.S. bomb attacks on your own country?" Khazraji replied, "By God, I think yes. The time is ripe."




  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 11:21 AM
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#71. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 70)


          

LMAO, sure, he's living in exile in Demark! LOL!

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 11:37 AM
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#72. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 71)


  

          

Seems to me that he has significantly more insight into the subject than you do.

Anthrax and VX found in Iraq, HAL. How long are you going to stay in denial?



  

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hal9000Tue Mar-04-03 11:40 AM
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#73. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 72)


          

He's in Demark! What does he care if Iraq gets bombed! LOL!!!!

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 11:49 AM
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#74. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 73)


  

          

You're in America! What do you care?




  

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PointmanTue Mar-04-03 04:33 PM
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#75. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 67)


          

You mean you didn't bother to verify the legitimacy of those two (major?) sources? You don't accept everything on the net is accurate and truthful, do you? Was it too much to ask if you made sure you weren't being taken by a couple of obscure websites? If so, I apologize.

The 4 million exiles figure was attributed to the UN and mentioned by several of the major news sources. But, it really makes no difference if the actual figure is 3 million or even 2 million. The point is, we hear from folks who probably couldn't find Iraq on a map, but not from the ones who have been there.

You don't need to be spoon feeding anyone --- you spoonsmanship is already suspect and the accuracy of your verification process might be even more so. However, you're welcome to share it with us in open forum. Just don't get upset if someone asks you if you "made it up."

Pointman

  

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AlWed Mar-05-03 09:24 AM
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#76. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 75)


  

          

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/314yltit.asp

Think you may find this article interesting, Pointman.



  

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PointmanWed Mar-05-03 10:11 AM
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#78. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Al (Reply # 76)


          

That article sure makes your heart go out to them.

The following message is from an Iraqi American to the protesters.

"If you want to protest that it's not okay to send your kids to fight, that's okay. But please don't claim to speak for the Iraqis. We've seen 5 million people protesting, but none of them were Iraqis. They don't know what's going on inside Iraq. France and whoever else, please shut up."

Thanks for the post.


Pointman

  

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robert70Wed Mar-05-03 10:06 AM
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#77. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 75)


          

>You mean you didn't bother to verify the legitimacy of those
>two (major?) sources? You don't accept everything on the net
>is accurate and truthful, do you? Was it too much to ask if
>you made sure you weren't being taken by a couple of obscure
>websites? If so, I apologize.

Your original inquiry was for information from or about Iraqi's that were opposed to the war. You are the one calling these major sources. My point being that sometimes if you want information you may have to look a little further then CNN.


>
>The 4 million exiles figure was attributed to the UN and
>mentioned by several of the major news sources. But, it
>really makes no difference if the actual figure is 3 million
>or even 2 million. The point is, we hear from folks who
>probably couldn't find Iraq on a map, but not from the ones
>who have been there.

I have seen a number of programs that interview Iraqi exiles with debates both for and against the war. Try watching PBS or BBC if you are more than sarcastically interested.


You don't need to be spoon feeding anyone --- you
>spoonsmanship is already suspect and the accuracy of your
>verification process might be even more so. However, you're
>welcome to share it with us in open forum. Just don't get
>upset if someone asks you if you "made it up."

Did you actually read any of the articles?

  

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AlWed Mar-05-03 10:29 AM
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#79. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 77)


  

          

Did you bother to read the article I linked in post 77?



  

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PointmanWed Mar-05-03 10:54 AM
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#81. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to robert70 (Reply # 77)


          

Get a grip Robert. Each day, I usually scan 2 or 3 newspapers, 3 online news networks besides CNN, a couple of online magazines along with AP, Reuters and whatever else looks interesting - I'm not fixated on CNN like you seem to be. PBS or C-span is often on while I'm in the house working. And, yes, I read some, not all, of what your two websites had to say, but enough.

Now, you don't need to be using your valuable time finding anything else for me. OK?


Pointman

  

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AlTue Mar-04-03 10:28 AM
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#69. "For those that believe Iraq has been telling the truth..."
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,174909,00.html



  

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garbruWed Mar-05-03 10:33 AM
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#80. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

The only thing I can say about the war is that we should either do it right or not do it at all. Non of this getting our troops all the way over there then blowing up a couple radar installations and then coming back. Either go over there and tear it up and get something done or dont go at all. If we go we should GET SADAM at all cost and be done with that a++hole once and for all even if it means we take losses. Its rediculous to keep going back and forth little at a time and just have to do next time what we missed this time. Go Full throttle or dont go at all.

Garbru

  

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AlWed Mar-05-03 12:45 PM
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#82. "RE: For those who oppose the war in Iraq"
In response to garbru (Reply # 80)


  

          

I agree. Bye, bye Saddam.



  

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