Updated at 11:55 a.m. ET: In a dramatic victory for President Barack Obama, the Supreme Court upheld the 2010 health care law Thursday, preserving Obama’s landmark legislative achievement. The majority opinion was written by Chief Justice John Roberts, who held that the law was a valid exercise of Congress’s power to tax. Roberts re-framed the debate over health care as a debate over increasing taxes. Congress, he said, is “increasing taxes” on those who choose to go uninsured.
Get ready for life to cost you a bit more money. We need a Health plan but requiring that we purchase Insurance. I am sure there are many details to the plan I don't understand and could be a much better Idea than I think. I hope so anyway. What ever the case it seems we are stuck with it no matter what we think.
#4. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to FZbar (Reply # 2)
Everyone who has medical insurance already pays for those who are uninsured and they always have been. The medical and pharmaceutical industries, and hospitals charge inflated prices to recoup their losses from treating the uninsured.
As with any insurance program, all must be insured in order to make possible caring for those who become sick and have increased medical expenses. In the case of medical insurance, the young and healthy pay into the fund, and when they need expensive care new people coming into the system will help in turn pay for their needs.
You can not legally drive a car without insurance, you can't wait until you have an accident to buy coverage. Insurance does not work that way.
You can not wait until your home is damaged and then buy insurance to pay for the repairs. Insurance does not work that way.
Insurance of any kind works by spreading risk over a population that has claims and does not have claims.
There could be no Social Security for your old age, if young workers, some of whom may never live to reap any payments, did not pay into Social Security.
Now we can look forward to universal health care. The plan is not perfect, but passing a perfect plan in this country is not possible. We had to pass a plan full of compromises, but after a hundred years of trying we have a compromised plan that I have every confidence we will improve over time. Too bad we are about the last civilized country to get it.
#6. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to Shelly (Reply # 4)
QUOTE:You can not legally drive a car without insurance, you can't wait until you have an accident to buy coverage. Insurance does not work that way.
You can not wait until your home is damaged and then buy insurance to pay for the repairs. Insurance does not work that way.
I agree that there needs to be some kind of national health care. I just think it's being implemented the wrong way. But those two examples are pretty stupid. You can't compare health insurance to car or home insurance. If you can't afford car insurance you don't drive (or your not supposed to), if you can't afford home insurance you don't buy a house (or you shouldn't). But if you can't afford this new health insurance...oh well, pay it anyway or else you'll be fined.
#33. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to Shelly (Reply # 4)
Yeah. this is a tough issue with a number of details to work out. Shelly is right. (pretty much always right) that insurance works when we have masses of people paying into it. If we had everybody paying some kind of premium... then the years that people paid into the system when their health was fine would help pay for when they need treatment and also all the payments would help to pay for people who are not able to pay at the moment. And when you think about it. It needs to be done. Because if a person who does not have health insurance has an accident or comes down with some emergency then the hospitals have to treat them. even if they don't have health care and if they are not able to pay.. then between the hospital, donations, and insurance companies representing those who are insured > they will have to pick up the slack. So people without health insurance get treated in some cases anyway and the system pays for it. So well this is the beginning of something. Its not going to be easy to get this off the ground at first but at some point down the line it will work and make a lot of sense. Now there are some other issues. In my opinion > the government needs to regulate the cost of medical equipment / treatments / medications & medicines... because we all know that some of the prices the medical industry charges for these things is out of control.
I have had some medical procedures done and almost shat my pants when I saw the itemized bill. A guy comes into the room to look at you for 4 minutes and the cost is like 800 bucks WTF?
They have to change that in my opinion. We cant let pharmaceutical companies take advantage of people when they are in desperate need of a medication to keep them alive > buy jacking up the prices. We cant allow that > and it does in fact happen and I think its a crime against humanity to do something like that. Overcharge people for what they need to survive.
Also if everybody is insured then we can enact preventative medicine and that can bring the cost of some issues down. If people get a regular checkup > doctors can spot issues before they get out of hand and often when that is done the person is better off and also the cost of the treatment can be much lower. Sometimes if a person has a medical issue > but does not go to the doctor because they don't have health insurance it just goes on and goes on... and the problem can get much worse and then finally when the person stumbles into the emergency room when they cant take it anymore the problem is huge now and can be a much more serious matter at that point and the cost to treat it can be crazy > but if they had gone in way back when the issue first became known... it could have been taken care of much more easily and the person would be better off that way and the cost would be lower that way and it would be better off all around for everybody. So in the long run insurance for everybody will be a good idea.
Health care for everybody is a good idea. Its not going to be easy to get it off the ground but I think down the line in the long run it will be the better choice for all of us. I also think wealthy people should have a larger premium to pay for insurance to pick up the slack for those who are lower class its the way it should be.
the hospitals have to treat them. even if they don't have health care
I'm mildly surprised that someone from the anti-"ObamaCare" group hasn't asked "Why? Why do hospitals have to treat everyone - whether they're insured or not?"
And, then stated something to the effect of "The uninsured should have bought insurance. I mean, I feel sorry for them but, hey, I have insurance and I sure as hell don't want to pay for their care. Nobody's paying for mine. I'm not my brother's keeper. Health care would be a lot cheaper if we didn't give them a free ride.
#34. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to Shelly (Reply # 4)
Shelly, I was in Appleton, Wisconsin at a Hooters restaurant with a friend and the waitress found out I was from Canada. The rest of the time I was there was spent just answering all of her questions about Universal Health Care, what is means, how it works, etc. Coming from a country where this has been the norm virtually my entire life I am amazed how US citizens are having so much difficulty grasping the obvious. I agree with you fully. The plan as implemented in the states is not perfect, but it exists, which is huge. Improvements and refinements will happen over time and, once everyone gets used to the benefits, I doubt many will want to ever lose it.
#12. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to FZbar (Reply # 2)
You bought into the Republican smear/misinformation campaign I guess.A lot of the imperfect "compromise" was because of them.What part about everyone pays a little so the few don't pay a lot don't you get?Our system while far from perfect allowed my wife to get 2 new hips without any more out of pocket than I was already paying.There are abuses and screwups but is far better than nothing.
#26. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to FZbar (Reply # 2)
QUOTE: Just wait until the folks who pay start paying for the 30 million new folks, many of which can't pay.
I'd venture a guess that Obama will find November very taxing.
Yeah that is the issue. Its nice to have healthcare for everybody but paying for it is not so easy done. There are lots of people who live near the poverty line and they wont be able to pay their share. so others are going to have to pick up the slack
I hope that it works. but man. I just dont know where the money is going to come from to pay for all of this.
And there's the problem. There are those who simply can't afford to pay for insurance. And those are the ones that this scheme is supposed to help. But how is forcing those people to pay for something they can't afford to begin with going to really help them? Well let's see... gotta pay that damn health insurance, guess I don't put gas in the car this week, or guess I don't pay the electric bill this month, or guess I don't pay the rent this month, etc.
#8. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 7)
I wonder what the costs are going to be. Will insurance premiums be on a sliding scale according to income or will everyone pay the same. Is congress and the president going to be included in the must pay for insurance plan? Wonder how it will effect the military retirees who have been guaranteed free medical care for life. Is it going to include dental care?
And that means what? I happen to know someone who is a single parent of two, getting $161 a week on unemployment and can't get Medicaid because $161 a week is deemed to be too much. So don't tell me that is how those who can't afford it will get the insurance.
#22. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 11)
In the law, mentioned in the Court decision, is a provision for poor people and members of any Indian tribe that exempts them from being taxed for medical insurance. Did we really expect there would not be exemptions?
#27. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 11)
There are provisions to make sure that people who honestly can't afford the health care won't need to pay for it. The "you must buy health insurance" rule is for thirty something folks who could completely afford health care, but don't pay for it. These folks, if they get sick, just go into a hospital. Hospitals can't deny treatment, but will be stiffed when the bill is handed to the patient. This lack of payment needs to be recouped somewhere and it comes from those of us who do get health insurance. Force these health care deadbeats to pay (again, different folks than those who honestly can't afford health care) and costs should come down.
#20. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to CompPete (Reply # 19) Thu Jun-28-12 09:14 PM by MSU
Well you guys are supporting it without doing any research so...
edit: I asked a simple question, how someone who can't afford it now is going to be able to afford it when forced to purchase it, and got referred to a 955 page document and told to read it. So obviously Shelly doesn't know the answer to my question either.
#21. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 20)
You don't know how much research I've done, so don't make accusations based on assumptions.
Shelly directed you to the law, if you want to read it. I tried to provide an easier link. If you've already researched it, your comments don't show it. If you're just too lazy to research it, then I suggest you stop bitching about it. Inform yourself then come back for debate if you'd like.
But I think you are capable of finding information like this on your own. This is a large, complex change - hence the large size of the full bill. Why do you expect me (or anyone else) to do your research for you? All I ask is that you TRY to find the answers yourself first before expecting someone else to spend the time to find them for you. That goes for the computer forum too.
Edit: You started off commenting in this thread by criticizing the bill, but now it seems you're seeking advice. Which one is it? Are you informed and disagree, or just uninformed?
Yes, I started out criticizing it. But you and I started going round and round after I asked a question (not of you though). Like I said before though, I believe something needs to be done. I just don't think this is it. Doesn't matter though. It is what it is and I really do hope it works out fantastically.
#35. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 29)
While the Republicans put a huge blockade in front of the public option, which is what you really needed, your health plan, while starting out a lot more complicated than it needs to be, will work pretty much like that in most other developed countries. Everyone contributes, those more able to will contribute proportionally more, and those with little means will be mostly exempt from any costs. The net result, which is what Universal Health Care really is, will be that everyone, no matter their means, will have the right to a future exempt from worrying whether you will be able to afford to stay healthy and alive. Even Cuba has that!
#32. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to MSU (Reply # 7)
I think we should make Walmart pay for the people that cant pay! Because Walmart has been sucking big bucks out of our communities for many years and they pay very little in taxes and give very little back to the communities.
Not to mention all the grief they have caused making it nearly impossible for lots of little businesses to stay in business once they move into town.
#31. "After the ruling: Lots left to do on health care reform" In response to jmc (Reply # 0)
Plenty of provisions look set to move ahead. They include changes meant to make doctors provide more effective care. Starting in 2015, doctors will get paid for keeping patients well, not necessarily for every test or procedure. That means, in theory, that a doctor will get paid the same by Medicare or Medicaid whether she gets a patient’s blood pressure down by prescribing drugs or by persuading him to lose weight and exercise. Accountable Care Organizations will also continue to be created. These new organizations are meant to encourage cooperation by grouping independent care providers such as doctors with hospitals. And the trend toward consolidation is likely to continue no matter what happens with the health reform law – something that, in theory, will make it easier to connect patients with specialists, for instance.
There are so many "Provisional Acts" inserted. It also seems it will mean different things to different people. It's an extremely complicated piece of Legislation. It's something that would need to be studied and explained by a professional to understand and use many parts of it.
It "Tries" to be good for all people but isn't and never can be.
#37. "RE: After the ruling: Lots left to do on health care reform" In response to jmc (Reply # 31)
A generation from now you folks will have in place (like the rest of the world's developed nations) some sort of single payer system for national health care. It's what everyone, other than America, has found to work best. It raises all boats, even though now and then one of them may spring a leak. Good socialism!
In the meantime, America, as always, will take no lesson from what others do and will go about it's usual business of trying to reinvent the wheel. You'll quibble and tear out what's left of your own hair in confusion and angst, and the reactionaries will rail and wail, and your politicos will serve their masters: private insurance and big pharm who will do their damndest to scare the shit out of you.
But Obama has jammed the foot of reason firmly in the door and the Supremes have locked it in place. Single payer is on the way. Some folks here will be around to reap the benefits. Their children and grandchildren will wonder what all the f'n fuss was about.
This is president Obama's legacy to America, and it's a big fat juicy one.
Ya, but its a change. And I've come to realize some people simply do not like change - ANY change. They will complain, stomp their feet, cry foul, play victim and spread paranoia until finally one day they realize it was a good change. Then they try to take credit for it.
#40. "RE: After the ruling: Lots left to do on health care reform" In response to jazz4free (Reply # 37) Fri Jun-29-12 03:50 PM by Shelly
The degree of ignorance being expressed here is monumental. For this I largely blame President Obama for not effectively explaining the act. But I have to also admit that there were risks in doing so before the Supreme Court had its say, which they inevitably had to decide.
Currently thee are about 50 million people in the US without health insurance. The Health act as passed by Congress, only provides for coverage of 30 million of those uninsured.
The act states that those who, based upon their their income, can afford buying insurance, must buy it or be penalized.
Why is this? Because the Insurance industry will have the incentive to meet the other requirements the act places upon them due to the millions of new healthy customers they will get because of the mandate. Those buying insurance can select varying coverage and cost plans from insurance exchanges. The main reason the plan does not go into full effect until 2014, is to provide the time to create these exchange networks.
Those who can not afford to buy insurance will receive financial help from the government, and the 17 million poorest citizens would be added to Medicaid, a state run program mostly paid for by US government grants to the states.
The Supreme Court made one change and most people do not yet understand its consequences. They ruled that State Medicaid programs can not be forced to include the additional poor uninsured people in their states, and so will not be eligible for the additional federal subsidies involved. This is a major weakening because the court ruled that Washington could not penalize a state by taking away the money they already received for Medicare. Because of this some part of that 17 million neediest Americans will not get the coverage they were intended to get under the new law. But many states will have a hard time explaining to voters why they are turning down tens of millions of federal dollars to keep their citizens unprotected.
Today about 80% of Americans get health insurance from their employer, most also have to pay a percentage of the cost, and their insurance usually ends or becomes their financial responsibility under the Cobra Act.
Thousand are stuck in jobs they hate in order to preserve their insurance. How did this happen? During WW2, employers had a hard time finding employees because millions of men were in the military for the duration, and competition for workers was intense. Many companies added a perk of health care insurance to attract workers.
Many companies will continue to have health insurance plans to retain their experienced work force, but workers can also have the freedom under the new law to change jobs without the fear of leaving their families without health care, and employer paid health care will be cheaper, because under the new law insurance companies can not deny insurance for pre existing conditions, or charge a higher rate for those with health problems than they charge healthy people.
I am old enough to remember some of the Republican objections to the Social Security Act. They used the same kind of arguments being used today to stop social security, they failed. Then they tried for decades to repeal Social Security, They failed. Today any attempt to take away Social Security is political suicide.
Universal Health Care in this country has been a long time coming. It was first proposed by President Theodore Roosevelt in 1913, and nearly Every Democratic president since Franklin Roosevelt has tried to establish universal Health care. Finally Barak Obama has succeeded, and that alone will earn him a favored place in history. There is still much to be done to improve it, but at least we now have something we can perfect to the benefit of all Americans. In future years any attempt to take it away will be political suicide.
I never had any doubt the Supreme Court would uphold the health care act, I expected a 6 to 3 decision, and I am still surprised that Justice Kennedy did not join the majority, but I knew that Chief Justice Roberts had to find a way to support it. Just as I knew that Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito would vote against it.
#39. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to jmc (Reply # 0)
For individuals who choose to not comply with the individual insurance mandate, Congress deliberately chose to make the penalty fairly weak: only $95 for 2014; $325 for 2015; and $695 in 2016.
I take it that the IRS will withhold money from peoples tax refund will be the consequence for no insurance. The concept of universal health care is still alive but I don't think it's workable in it's present form, and they know it.
#43. "RE: SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS HEALTH CARE INSURANCE LAW" In response to jmc (Reply # 42)
It should have been one public payee, and it should have been funded through taxation. Unfortunately, the US citizenry balks at the thought of each, as if both concepts are some sort of evil. Taxation pays for the wonders of our modern society - if we want, and get, more, we need to pay more. The public payee eliminates the middle man, which is the powerful insurance companies. Why have them in the middle to extract their cut? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
I am 100% with you on this one. I would have no problem paying higher taxes if it meant I was assured good medical care. I would gladly pay more and I am sure many others would also agree. That is the way it should have been done. This current health bill just adds another law and that law is not fair to everybody at all. All it will do is put more money into the hands of the Insurance business and do almost nothing for the poor people it is supposed to be helping. It will do more harm to them if I understand how it plans on working.
I think your right about single payer. We need to get rid of the idea that healthcare is a marketable commodity. The insurance companies and big pharma distort the conversation but in reality they shouldn't have a place at the table. Insurance will be gone and big pharma will operate from a pull sales model rather than push. If we expand medicare/mediciaid and the VA that should cover everybody I think.
The Republicans were the ones that stood in the way of a more sensible implementation, mostly notably in their refusal to consider the public option. However, the legislation does contain a lot of constraint points to limit the abuse of the system by the insurers. As Shelly has said, it will improve with time. Be thankful you are finally getting something even loosely related to what most other developed countries have. Enjoy! Don't nitpick about the details, the problems will mostly resolve eventually.