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Subject: "Am I missing something???" Previous topic | Next topic
CrazedFri Jan-24-03 06:04 AM
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"Am I missing something???"


          

As the US approaches what appears to be a certain invasion/attack on Iraq, I'm sure I'm missing something. I have yet to see clear and convincing evidence that Iraq presents an immediate threat to the USA, or anyone, but themselves.

I am convinced that Saddam is an evil person and has built a horrid regime, but what does the President know that he's not sharing. I'm certainly not a dove (yes, I've had my butt in the cross hairs and put a few there myself with the underwater guys), but I can't determine the actual mission objective, nor the reason to risk American lives without additional information. It feels as though our President is determined to finish something his father failed to do.

I know all about the oil, and all the cynicism that surrounds that topic; I'm not interested in seeing that re-hashed. But is it unreasonable for the American public to demand that evidence be presented that warrants the death of our sons and daughters?


  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 06:20 AM
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#1. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 0)


  

          

There is clear evidence they violated the UN rules.
Why the UN hasn't already given the go ahead is what I would like to know.

The only reasons I can come up with that Bush is so die hard about is that he does know something he's not telling or they have strong suspected links to terrorist acts that they can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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ablibFri Jan-24-03 06:31 AM
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#2. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 1)


  

          

Why second guess it? I would bet that all the pacifists of America would think otherwise about NOT attacking Iraq when half of the US is gone.

Visit the Basement

  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 06:47 AM
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#6. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to ablib (Reply # 2)


          

How is that going to be completed by Iraq?


  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 06:32 AM
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#3. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 1)


  

          

There are 3 countries that the US shares intelligence data with pretty much completely. Those are Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. Interestingly, all 3 of those countries have stated that there is more than enough evidence that Saddam Hussein presents a "Clear and Present Danger" to the security of the region and the world.

Something which everyone seems to ignore is that Iraq signed a "cease-fire", not a peace agreement at the end of the Gulf War. Technically, the Gulf War has never ended, and the shots that Iraq has taken at planes enforcing the "no-fly" zone are violations of the cease-fire.

In 1935, Europe decided Hitler wasn't worth risking the lives of their young men. In 1940, I wonder how many regreted that decision?



  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 06:43 AM
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#4. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 3)


          

Al, I know the history. What I am asking is, "Why George is unwilling to provide the evidence?" Do we have it, or not? So far, the inspection teams (even given our classified data) are unable to reveal a wispy gun, much less a smoking gun. Even JFK revealed the surveillance pictures during the Cuban missile crisis.


  

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labyrinthFri Jan-24-03 06:49 AM
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#7. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 4)


          

Crazed: More then likely the reason the evidence isn't shown, is that (the evidence) would give a hint to its source. Kind of like, during WWII when Britian and the US were monitoring Nazi and Japanese codes........or in other words where, 'the medium is the message'.

  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 09:05 PM
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#49. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 4)


  

          

IN 1961, John F. Kennedy showed blurry aerial photographs that he claimed showed that Cuba had ICBM sites on them. The photographs could have been a lot of things, and as evidence, they were far from conclusive. What JFK could not tell the American people is that we had every bit of data on the ICBMs, their shipping, and their sites...all from a mole in the GRU (Soviet military intelligence).




  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:39 AM
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#36. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 3)
Fri Jan-24-03 10:46 AM

          



Technically it never began because war was never declared.

In 1935, Europe decided Hitler wasn't worth risking the lives of their young men. In 1940, I wonder how many regretted that decision?

Who's he going to invade Al? Turkey, Iran, Sauda Arabia, Syria, Jordan? I don't think so, not unless he wants to commit suicide!

  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 09:07 PM
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#50. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 36)
Fri Jan-24-03 09:12 PM

  

          

Saddam has shown consistently that he cares neither for himself or the people of Iraq. You are foolish if you think he ascribes to your idea of logical thought. You are also foolish if you think that Saddam cannot strike targets outside of the immediate area. Or did you ignore September 11th?

As to the Gulf War, you are incorrect. A declaration of war is not required to have a state of war.



  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:33 PM
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#53. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 50)


          

Was war ever declared on Iraq? No! You're using Newspeak when you make reference to "a state of war."

Most of the 911 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and funded by Saudi sympathizers. Why not invade Saudi Arabia who US companies have also sold Millions in weapons?

  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 10:08 PM
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#56. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 53)
Fri Jan-24-03 10:08 PM

  

          

Patty Hearst was an American. Should we invade Chicago?

I suppose you would claim that the Korean and Vietnam Wars never happened either. No declaration of war in either case. The Korean War had a Cease-Fire and is considered to still be at war. The Vietnam War had a peace treaty (The Paris Peace Accords). Kind of funny that someone would sign a treaty for a war that doesn't exist, huh?



  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 03:49 AM
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#66. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 56)


  

          

"Should we invade Chicago?"

I'm ready

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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EdGreeneSat Jan-25-03 04:37 AM
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#72. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 50)


          

>Saddam has shown consistently that he cares neither for
>himself or the people of Iraq. You are foolish if you think
>he ascribes to your idea of logical thought. You are also
>foolish if you think that Saddam cannot strike targets
>outside of the immediate area. Or did you ignore September
>11th?
>
>As to the Gulf War, you are incorrect. A declaration of war
>is not required to have a state of war.

If Saddam has shown us anything, he has shown us a remarkable will to survive, which accounts for all the palaces, the secret undergound bunkers, the multiplicity of "doubles"-etc. That shows that he care a hell of a lot about himself, if no one else.

It was not Saddam or any of his cohorts who struck us on 9/11. To confuse Sadam's "terrorism" with Osma Bin Laden's group is to misunderstand your enemy. Because they are all Muslims really misses the point.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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AlSat Jan-25-03 06:23 AM
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#76. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 72)


  

          

9/11 shows that it does not require a fleet or an Army to strike anywhere in the world. Are you really unable to comprehend that basic lesson?

And there are a number of psychological profiles available on Saddam Hussein. None of them indicate that he values his survival over the furthering of his vision of himself as the reincarnation of Nebuchaneezer. You mistake ego for fear.



  

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freespiritSat Jan-25-03 02:11 PM
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#95. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 76)


          

hmmm. Maybe all that Illuminati/Mystery Babylon stuff is true. Fringe-wacko weirdness or the timeless and ancient story behind modern conflict. Belive It Or Not!

"Saddam seeks to restore the lost glory of Babylon, ancient home of the Tower of Babel, the Gate to God. In 1991, Saddam's Babel Tower was the first Coalition target to be destroyed. Saddam rebuilt the tower. It will likely be the first target if military action is taken against Saddam."

http://williamhenry.net/planet_x/saddam.htm

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 02:27 PM
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#97. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to freespirit (Reply # 95)


  

          

That's his tower of Bable? What a dork. I thought he was rebuilding the actual tower to bible specs.

It will likely be a target again. Besides the obvious that it's a communications tower, it's a mind game.
That is one of his claims to fame. It makes him mad and makes his people doubt him.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 06:46 AM
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#5. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 1)


          

I'm not interested in the UN rules. One can always find a exception to rules propagated by politicians.


  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 06:57 AM
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#8. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 5)


  

          

I can see both sides. (I'd make a terrible politician).
Why don't they show the 'proof'. I for one would like to see it.
On the other hand, Iraq still fires upon aircraft.
Sadaam, just another Hitler. Nuke 'em all. }>
Or, they could just have meetings and talk them to death.
Or we could wait until he decides to launch his crap and we're all dead.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 07:01 AM
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#9. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 8)


          

I see both sides too. But if we are asking families to give up a loved one, we need more than allegations.


  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 07:25 AM
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#10. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 9)


  

          

The people who will be giving up their lives signed up to do that. They didn't sign up to give their lives only on the condition they agree with the reasons.

If anyone in the military was there outside of their own will I could see them needing a reason, I would be wanting to know the reason. But everyone there wanted to be there.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 07:41 AM
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#11. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 10)


  

          

I agree Myk. I went into the USMC knowing full aware that (possibly) might have to fight.
The news now is showing so many interviews with the Iraqi leaders. Most of them seem like nice people. And what they say, I want to believe. Could there be just that 1 evil guy? Sadaam? And the others just taking orders?



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 07:46 AM
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#12. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 10)


          

The Iraqi people didn't signed up, or don't they fit into your equation?

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 07:57 AM
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#14. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 12)


  

          

They could oust Saddam.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 08:04 AM
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#17. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 14)


          

With sticks???


  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 08:21 AM
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#20. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 17)


  

          

Well, from what the news is letting us see, people can go into a gun shop and purchase a gun.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 10:04 AM
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#30. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 17)


  

          

>With sticks???

I suppose they could use sticks if they wanted to. Personally I would use the AK47's (and probably AK74's by now) that they have. I guess a tank might work better than a stick but I don't know for sure since I've never fired a tank.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:33 AM
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#35. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 17)


          

Statement by British Member of Parliment George Galloway:

"Many Iraqi's hate their president, but many Iraqi's do not and even some of those who hate the president, hate the idea of a foreign invasion and a foreign occupation even more. So no one in the US should be under any illusion that this will be some kind of picnic to invade and occupy an Arab country. The idea of 250,000 or more Americans patrolling the streets of an Arab country for years to come is just unthinkable to anyone who knows this region well.

The bombardment of a highly urbanized country like this with great cities, the city that were in now has 5 Million people living in it. The Army will all be in the cities, their not going to stand out in the desert waiting to be bombed. So to hit the army you're going to have to hit the people. You're going to have to destroy the cities in a kind of Dresden-like bombardment that will kill 10,000 maybe 100,000 Iraqis. Then the invaders come and they will be fought by the survivors of the bombardment.

You know, the Iraqi youth are not less than the Palestinian youth who are facing the Israeli occupations forces everyday. There's only 1 1/2 Million of them and they don't have weapons by and large. There is 23 Million Iraqi's and they ALL HAVE WEAPONS and ultimately they'll have their bodies as weapons just like in Palestine. The Saddam Militia, which is several Million strong, are the suicide bombers of tomorrow against the occupation forces. So the subjugate and crush the cities there's going to be enormous casualties, not only Iraqi but American too.

The first people to use chemical weapons in the middle east and against the kurds in the North of Iraq were the British. Winston Churchill in 1932 dropped chemical weapons on what he called "Rebel Northern Tribesman." Britain and America used WMD's in the form of depleted Uranium in the War of 1991; the results of which are visible in the hospitals today in deformed children and cancer epidemic and all sorts of congenital diseases.

To be a weapon of mass destruction it doesn't have to explode, the embargo against Iraq has killed more people than all the weapons of mass destruction in history...."

  

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ukmitchFri Jan-24-03 11:01 PM
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#59. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 35)


  

          

Hal, you are slipping in your usually admirable choice of sources.....George Galloway, British MP!!

Gorgeous George is his nickname.

George Galloway MP - a man of proven immorality - stands quite alone in British politics. For his description of Saddam Hussein as being "shy and retiring", if for nothing else.

He also refused a chocolate offered him by the gentile dictator!

Those who would like a good laugh, read just part of this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,792917,00.html



Mitch

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 11:37 PM
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#61. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 59)


          

LOL!

If you were to subtract his political persuasion, I would have guessed his characterization was a dead ringer for you! Damn him for thinking of Iraq's as people--how dare him. I don't suppose your pro war pronouncements and love and admiration for GW and Tony strike a similar chord of obsequiousness.

  

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ukmitchSat Jan-25-03 12:09 AM
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#63. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 61)


  

          

>LOL!
>
>If you were to subtract his political persuasion, I would
>have guessed his characterization was a dead ringer for you!
>Damn him for thinking of Iraq's as people--how dare him. I
>don't suppose your pro war pronouncements and love and
>admiration for GW and Tony strike a similar chord of
>obsequiousness.

Hi Hal

Obsequiousness - had to look it up: n : abject or cringing submissiveness [syn: {servility}, {subservience}]

Sounds just like me.....

BTW. I vote New Labour these days, but not for Gorgeous George, Sadamm's best (only?) pal!!



Mitch

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 01:33 AM
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#64. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 63)


          

I could use a little of your charm.

  

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ukmitchSat Jan-25-03 03:39 AM
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#65. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 64)


  

          

On Gorgeous George's recommendation, I'm thinking of enrolling at the Saddam School of Charm.

They say he has ways of making you appeal - for mercy!!



Mitch

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 08:19 AM
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#19. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 14)


          

Too late now! Why didn't the US help them do that long ago? There's 23 Million Iraqi people, 5 Million alone in Bagdad. The stomachs of Gulf War veterans churn recalling the senseless over-kill and carnage along "Highway of Death" in 1991. Some 200,000 Iraqi's died in the Gulf War and many children have been born with birth defects from the Uranium.

Additionally, "In what they refer to as a "method, if not a weapon, of mass destruction," two scholars concluded in the journal Foreign Affairs that the sanctions "may have contributed to more deaths during the post-Cold War era than all weapons of mass destruction throughout history." According to U.N. estimates, the sanctions have killed approximately half a million girls and boys under the age of 5. The figure for adults is similar. Considering only the former, that's far more children than the entire population, young and old, of Minneapolis, and nearly twice that of St. Paul.

Of the 696,778 troops who served during the recognized conflict phase (1990-1991) of the Gulf War, at least 20,6861 have applied for VA medical benefits.

  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 08:50 AM
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#22. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 19)


  

          

I agree.
So I think it's safe to say: "Another fine mess that we (the U.S.) have gotten ourselves into".
They try to fix their mistakes the *wrong* way!



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 07:51 AM
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#13. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 0)


          

So you know about all the oil and don't want to rehash that but you're stumped and want some answers.

Well my friend...that IS the answer, why don't you want to discuss it?

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 07:58 AM
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#15. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 13)


  

          

Because it ISN'T the answer.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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CrazedFri Jan-24-03 08:04 AM
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#16. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 15)


          

I'm afraid it's "Operation Frequent Manhood" with credit to Gary Trudoe.


  

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BrendaCanadaFri Jan-24-03 08:22 AM
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#21. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 15)


          

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021001-16834640.htm


There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 08:51 AM
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#23. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 21)
Fri Jan-24-03 08:52 AM

          

That's a perfect example of US mainstream media propaganda! Brenda, do you know anything at all about Donald Rumsfeld's past? And there's no UN sanctioned no fly Zone.

  

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BrendaCanadaFri Jan-24-03 08:58 AM
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#24. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 23)
Fri Jan-24-03 09:07 AM

          

No, I don't know Rumsfield's history.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00357.html (March 2000)

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/flyindex.htm




There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:16 AM
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#25. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 24)


          

LOL!!

That's complete bullshit! Then why not use the US Airforce to militarily attack all countries with known human rights violations. I suggest you gather your news from 2-3 sources like one would a docotor's opinion.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0301/20/sdi.02.html

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,391985,00.html

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:19 AM
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#26. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 24)


          

I'm confused, these two links say two different things, what's your point?

  

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BrendaCanadaFri Jan-24-03 07:22 PM
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#46. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 26)


          

In the first link it says:

"I strongly disagree with both the factual and the general legal arguments they're putting forward, but I think it's important to know what we're arguing against."


In the second link it says: "claiming a false authority"

Both say no-fly-zones are not legal but they exist none the less. They are 'deemed necessary for security' ... the 'validation' for them.

One can agree or disagree with that 'validation'; but they are clearly not sanctioned as you stated.


There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 08:54 PM
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#48. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 46)


          

I wonder why you would enter 2 seperate posts with links and no comment and then wait until the following day to say,

"One can agree or disagree with that 'validation'; but they are clearly not sanctioned as you stated."

Why didn't you just say that to begin with in one post and provide the links in support of your comment?

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:59 AM
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#29. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 24)
Fri Jan-24-03 10:24 AM

          

Donald Rumsfeld was the director for Gulfstream Aerospace, his stock in the company reportedly was valued at $11 million when the company was acquired by defense contractor General Dynamics in 1999.

http://www.opensecrets.org/bush/cabinet/cabinet.rumsfeld.asp

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/jan0203.html

"In January United Defense, whose board of directors includes Carlucci and John Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said its fourth- quarter profits had risen 62 percent, due in large part to sales of the Crusader, which received $472 million in the Pentagon's latest budget.

Those events raised a few eyebrows, particularly at a time when the media were dishing out daily revelations about Enron's political influence in Washington. Columnist Paul Krugman described the Pentagon's policy switch on the Crusader as a "very nice gift" from Rumsfeld to Carlucci, whom Rumsfeld brought into government, and an example of "crony capitalism," the Asian model of capitalism scorned by US economists and the International Monetary Fund www.thenation.com>....."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/tncs/2002/cronycap.htm

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:41 AM
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#28. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 21)


          

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1042491018351&p=1012571727291

http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/2002Q4/war.html

http://www.guerrillanews.com/war_on_terrorism/doc981.html

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15012

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14993

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,880437,00.html

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 10:18 AM
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#32. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 28)


  

          

That's a perfect example of left wing paranoid propaganda!

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:26 AM
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#33. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 32)


          

So it goes...

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 10:28 AM
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#34. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 33)


  

          

That's right. And the real answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:56 AM
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#38. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 34)


          

For instance?

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 04:14 AM
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#69. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 38)


  

          

The answer I've been giving you all along for one possible answer. You can almost be sure that it isn't your obvious but twisted claim of oil, oil, oil.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 08:04 AM
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#18. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 13)


  

          

Not everybody thinks like you, Hal.
Clonaid.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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81 NewbeeFri Jan-24-03 09:25 AM
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#27. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 18)


  

          

Let's stop asking Bush and Company to provide the evidence.The evidence was there when the "inspectors" were in Iraq before and they were finding lots of weapons including chemical warheads.The inspectors were harrassed and stonewalled constantly and eventually tossed out of the country.Motormouths like Ted(we will cross that bridge when we come to it)Kennedy were spouting support for Clinton's threat of force which never happened.
There was a long list of KNOWN weapons that Iraq had that were to be destroyed when the inspectors were tossed out.
The current UN Resolution requires Iraq to account for any weapons and weapons programs.The farce list that Iraq submitted doesn't even account for the disposition of the KNOWN weapons and nothing about any programs he had that were discovered by the inspections in the first go around.
Iraq has violated the UN resolution and this political smoke screen that the peaceniks anti anti Bush crowd chants about proof or evidence should be directed at Iraq.This OIL mantra is another smokescreen for the anti president crowd.It's time for Iraq to put up and for the peaceniks to direct their venom at the real problem in this fight, IRAQ!!!!!! }> }>

81 Newbee

  

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ablibFri Jan-24-03 10:05 AM
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#31. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 27)


  

          

Go 81 Newbee!

Visit the Basement

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:55 AM
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#37. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 18)


          

Well I know of at least 300,000 to 400,000 people that do and they're just the ones that showed up to protest and that's just in the US. Millions oppose this war!

  

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81 NewbeeFri Jan-24-03 11:25 AM
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#39. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 37)


  

          

"the embargo against Iraq has killed more people than all the weapons of mass destruction in history"This is another distortion.Or better yet Bulls**t.One of the provisions of surrender permitted Iraq to sell oil for food and medicine .They have also been selling oil out the backdoor as the embargo was not strictly enforced.There was money available to prevent these deaths(if all of them are factual)Iraq built several ornate palaces and spend plenty on their military.Saddam doesn't give a damn about his people and the UN is not always careful about where it obtains the "facts" it reports.While i certainly regret the death of children,to blame this on Bush and the USA is at best a stretch. }> }> }>

81 Newbee

  

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RoperaFri Jan-24-03 11:41 AM
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#41. "My point of view"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 37)
Fri Jan-24-03 11:42 AM

          

We know that Iraq is been allowed to export some of its oil for humanitarian reasons, of course Saddam uses it for other purposes. As a consequence of this the Iraqi children die, this is not US nor the UN responsibility.

If we point the finger at Rumsfeld's past behavior, we also have to counterweight Hussein's past behavior, not only take one side.

I think that they have something to hide, but it is not something that an inspector would find easily. An invasion, with evacuation of scientists and their families to a safe place could give better results. Lets not forget that Iraq has been evading inspections for 10 years, not to mention that they fire at UN approved flights when they should let them do their work.

Of course, if the US don't find anything, they are going to be responsible for a useless invasion, however, I am not sure if the people who advocate for no-war understand that if Iraq do have weapons of mass destruction and they use them, those against war do have a responsibility too. Adopting a passive stance does not excepts one from responsibility if something happens.

So the question is, on which side we find ourselves? Personally, I didn't vote for Bush, but that does not mean that I have to be against everything this government is trying to do. Being a responsible citizen means expressing my genuine opinions in spite of who won the elections, it does not starts and end one Tuesday in November.

Now, genuinely opposing War no matter what the circumstances are is a very respectable position too. Is that I just can not get out of my head the passivity with which Jewish confronted the nazis during the War. I think we should bite first.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 12:18 PM
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#43. "RE: My point of view"
In response to Ropera (Reply # 41)
Fri Jan-24-03 12:19 PM

          

Rumsfeld's past behavior clearly identifies him as a major investor in the defense industry who has a vested interest in being a war monger. If you were to conduct a little research you'd find that many of the members of Bush's staff have previous ties to both the oil industry and the defense industry. You're only deluding yourself if you think that just because the media indicates these people have no current relationship with any of these companies, that they don't still have a relationship behind the scenes. Your opposition is based on the scare tactics the elite cooperate owned media has sold you who also have a vested interest.

There are 10 countries that are known to have chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction: Lybia, North Korea, South Korea, Russia, China, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Israel and Taiwan. Then there's India, China, Pakistan, North Korea, Russia and Israel that have nuclear.

Why shouldn't the US bite any of these countries as well?

  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 09:16 PM
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#52. "RE: My point of view"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 43)


  

          

How many of them have used Weapons of Mass Destruction?



  

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EdGreeneFri Jan-24-03 12:02 PM
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#42. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 37)


          

I call the name of this new movie:
"Junior's Revenge: Gulf War; Part ll".

Clearly, Junior is spoiling for a fight, and like all bullies, he's picking on the weakest opponent. Junior is motivated by
1. The things people said in hindsight above his Dad's failure to wipe out Saddam in Gulf War l
2. He latched onto this scheme as a means to a. show how tough he is b. to win the 2002 and 2004 elections,
3. To cover up his miserable job performance otherwise d. to cover up his dismal post 9/11 performance.

The man (used advisedly), has no plan to cure or stimulate the economy, using the hyped-up "War on Terrorism" and tax cuts (he says is for all Americans) but we know is for the ultra rich.
Along the way, this son-of-a-Bush got Republicans elected in record numbers, enough to carry out his now transparent plans to
1. Gut abortion
2. Insert another Republican on the Supreme Court
3. Gut "Affirmative Action"
4. Show how tough his non-reporting to his National Guard unit self really is.

Anyone who hasn't figured Junior's strategy out by now is not willing to ask the questions: "Why hasn't Junior done anything about the economy?
Actually, He' a strutting little peacock impressed with his own rhetoric, a man who has no clue as to running a country.

The World Trade Center
When I saw the second aircraft approaching tower two, I said to myself: "I'll be damned, what genius!", having instantly figured out the second aircraft was part of a plan. But who knew it was the plan of one fruitcake Saudi Arabian, pissed off at America because we had sent troops into Saudi Arabia?
*I happened to remember that Bin Laden was thought to be the perpetrator of the first attack on the World Trade Center, so the 9/11 attack that followed did not surprise me. But I was struck at how devilishly simple his plans were on 9/11 compared to the first WTC bombing, where nearly every thing he planned went wrong.

Junior was and is embarrassed by
1. His failure to “get” Bin Laden in his Afghanistan ploy and so now, he’s striking out at his next most irritating antagonist: Sad-dum (That’s the way his daddy Dam says Saddam)
2. His abject failure as a president.

Ask yourself this series of questions:
A. What is Junior going to do after he’s kicked Saddam’s butt and the only real “enemy” he can conjure up is dead or gone?
B. Since the “War On Terrorism” is more fizzle than reality, how long is he going pretend that we are under threat by hordes of terrorists?
C. How is he going to explain to Americans why we’re losing freedoms Americans have come to regard as sacrosanct?
D. What is he going to do about the economy, itself grinding to a halt while he plays “Arab buster”?
E. What are the tens of millions of Americans going to do when the economy actually goes down the toilet?
F. What enemy is he going to invent to take Saddam’s place, especially since he went weak in the knees when the North Koreans showed their hand?
G. Are you really shocked that he and his administration were caught off-guard by the North Korean’s move?

I remember how dirty-rotten-lying Clinton kept almost a “war a year” going while the economy roared ahead. What with how poorly Junior is handling things, I’d leave all my principals (and my Libertarian soul) behind me when I went into the voting booth to vote for Bill Clinton in 2004.


I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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BrendaCanadaFri Jan-24-03 07:14 PM
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#45. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 42)


          

EdGreene
POOF! You are the President now. What is your course of action? What is your stand on terrorism? Does the economy come first and foremost? Will you stand down the troops?



There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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MykFri Jan-24-03 07:53 PM
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#47. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 45)


  

          

If that would happen I would be on the next boat out of town

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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EdGreeneFri Jan-24-03 09:15 PM
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#51. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 45)


          

>EdGreene
>POOF! You are the President now. What is your course of
>action? What is your stand on terrorism? Does the economy
>come first and foremost? Will you stand down the troops?

Ed says: "It the economy-stupid." I pointed out how Clinton fought a series of "dirty little wars" but the economy never even hiccupped. Junior, unlike my self, seems keenly unaware of the bust in tech stocks, and the precarious condition of the gabler's,eer. stack market, which lead to a serious reduction in spending by the previously ultra rich. At the same time, "middle class" America was losing jobs: My own best-computer engineering genius friend, employed at $160,000 plus bonuses just last July, is now substitute teaching in Columbus Ohio for about $32 an hour just to keep from going under.

1. "Terrorism" at least that as it has been defined by Junior, is affecting America far out of proportion to its actual threat. The government, instead of passing out the largess as usual, is squandering monies on anti-terrorism paraphernalia (Homeland Defense) to a degree it once spent on the military alone. As Junior spread his "war on terrorism" talk, local, county, state governments followed, focusing so much on terrorism that no one was minding the economic front.
Nearly every state is going bankrupt paying attention to terrorism, meanwhile, trying as best they can to stem the economic flow from the hole in their state's treasury-dike. State reserves are being drained and what the 90s built up, Junior, by paying too much attention to both of his phony wars, has let the economy go to hell.
(Junior is making huge cuts in education. What kind of madman cuts education, when children are our future?)

We face two brands of "terrorists". One, made up in large part by Arabs from the so-called "Middle East", egged on by the AlQueada faction, is specifically targeting America. The other "terrorists", content with bombing Israel, are NOT a threat to us and should be largely ignored.
(But Junior, unable to make the fine distinction, bunches them all together. Thus a bomb in downtown Haifa, Israel is treated as if it went off in downtown Detroit).
I would "turn out the dogs of war,” special ops groups, giving them the commission of bringing back the head of Osama Bin Laden.

One seminal question: what to do when the "war" with Saddam is over and 350,000 troops come back to a country reeling under the impending economic collapse? Send them back out to fight North Korea?
(Unlike the regular armed forces branches, tens of thousands of our National Guards personnel and Reservists have been laid off while they are serving their country overseas).

2.Remove the threats where possible. That means those who fit the profile must go. Don't go there, don't start on "due process" and our other hallowed traditions. I'd treat interior threats the same damn way Israel does. No trials, just deportation, quick, fast and in a hurry. Gone, skidoo, out a here.
3. Throw those hundreds of millions of "Gulf War ll" dollars at Immigration and the Border Patrol.

4. Give tax breaks to GENUINE small businesses, not multi-million dollar corporations formed to meet the "small business" qualifications.
(Any, ANY Corporation with under 150 employees qualifies as "small business").
What happened then was huge, multinational corporations spun off small divisions of the "mother" corporation just to take advantage of "Small business" rules.

5. Target, then let the North Koreans and anyone else who wants or needs to know we have and will send their bridges, power plants, potential nuclear facilities down into rubble. Get out of Korea.

6. Get the hell out of Europe since it has been thoroughly domesticated. If Europeans can’t defend themselves (from what or whom I'd like to know) by now, then flack-em.

7. Stop sending billions of dollars to Israel. They can damn well take care of themselves.

8. Americans and America own or control (through licensing) nearly 92% of the chemicals needed to process Cocaine. When Jimmie Carter put an embargo on shipping those chemicals to drug producing countires like Peru, the shortage of chemicals drove the price of Cocaine up to $85,000 a kilo. Reagan came on, and in the name business, lifted the enbargoes. Within 18 months, (one and a half growing seasons), the street price of a kilo of Cocaine had dropped to $75,000. By 1985, the stret price had dropped to under $50,00 a kilo. by 1987, the price was under $25,000, soon to fall to $22,000. Crack can be made with $22,000 Cocaine and the Crack epidemic began, jails began to fill up, the price of a kilo of Heroin had dropped to within easy reach of street criminals and the rest is history.
Ed would put the embagoes back in place, driving the price of a kilo fo Cocaine above $50,000, the price break when it is no longer economically feasible to make Cocaine into crack.
The number of persons arrested for Crack or Cocaine/Heroin possesion or use would drop precipitosuly and the cost of criminal justice, the murder and crime rates would fall to below 1965 levels.

9. Do alternative energy, even if it does scare the oil people to death. 9a. Rebuild the infrastructure.
Ed doesn’t care what happens to others outside this country if means that by taking care of them, spending money on them ior their defense nstead of our own sick, elderly, the education of our children, the national infrastructure (have you seen the state of our highways, bridges, power grid and our health care system?), our own country goes or gets drug down to the sorry depths of Europe and Japan?

Whatever one thinks of Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s politics, he put America and Americans to work building and rebuilding this country. Ed would do the same, starting with insuring that the education of our children is complete, thorough and comprehensive. Ed would put people to work rebuilding what has or is falling down. There is bridge in Ohio that if it fell down, east-west transportation would virtually come to a halt. Terrorists dropping bridges scare me a lot more than them spreading anthrax. There is a viaduct in Kansas City that if it fell, by terrorism or age, would disrupt traffic for months, including east-west travel. Terrorists would not have to drop either one of the bridges I mentioned to put this country into economic shock we would take years to recover from. Just them falling from further neglect would do that.

Lastly, but not facetiously, ban SUVs and other gas-guzzlers from our highways. It is this damn commitment to Americans to let them do na d bulidd and drive whatever they damn well pleased that got us into the oil dependency mess and it will take stern measures to dig us out, starting with those obscene SUVs.
(Banning SUVs would drop the price of a barrel of oil to under $12 dollars-US) which means gas at the (self-serve) pump would cost a lot under one dollar.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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BrendaCanadaFri Jan-24-03 11:31 PM
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#60. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 51)


          

Stupid??????????
Haul out ALL US military out of every single foreign country they are based in now, close off the US border, line up your ships along both coasts, close off all immigration for 10 years, etc., and leave them in the middle east & europe etc. to fight and see which country will get bigger and which will get smaller, if Sadam will invade Saudi Arabia who has no troops and double his oil reserves in one and half days...etc. Let them find out who they want to live beside...who they want in their 'neighbourhood' and who are the 'bad guys' (it won't be USA now)...Israel won't have cheap slave Palestinians (who will join the fight to help Saudi Arabia) to do their labour with a million entering the country every day on passes with a few suicide bombers sneaking through.....US concentrates on it's own economy...saves on military costs.....

Your wish list?





There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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ukmitchSat Jan-25-03 12:03 AM
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#62. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 60)


  

          

Well said, Brenda!!



Mitch

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 04:13 AM
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#68. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 60)


  

          

That's what I think we need to do. Except we need to ship the Hal's out first so they can enjoy the fruits of their labors.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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freespiritSat Jan-25-03 04:23 AM
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#71. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 60)


          

EdGreene/BrendaCanada - Right on.

  

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81 NewbeeSat Jan-25-03 06:22 AM
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#75. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 60)


  

          

Brenda my friend,Pat Buchanan(sp.?) would want you for his vice president.Make Hal Secretary of defense. Do you really mean this?
"In response to message #51

Stupid??????????
Haul out ALL US military out of every single foreign country they are based in now, close off the US border, line up your ships along both coasts, close off all immigration for 10 years, etc., and leave them in the middle east & europe etc. to fight and see which country will get bigger and which will get smaller, if Sadam will invade Saudi Arabia who has no troops and double his oil reserves in one and half days...etc. Let them find out who they want to live beside...who they want in their 'neighbourhood' and who are the 'bad guys' (it won't be USA now)...Israel won't have cheap slave Palestinians (who will join the fight to help Saudi Arabia) to do their labour with a million entering the country every day on passes with a few suicide bombers sneaking through.....US concentrates on it's own economy...saves on military costs.....
Your wish list?"



81 Newbee

  

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BrendaCanadaSat Jan-25-03 06:49 AM
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#77. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 75)


          

Merely making a point. Why not go all the way with it? LOL....


There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 11:28 AM
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#40. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Crazed (Reply # 0)


          


  

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andrini2000Fri Jan-24-03 03:24 PM
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#44. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 40)
Fri Jan-24-03 03:25 PM

  

          

Sadaam has been spending $100,000's monthly on whiskey for his military.
What kinda crap is that?

Edit: He should be spending that money on food, medicine, etc. for his people. And they love him so.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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sophie tuckerFri Jan-24-03 09:37 PM
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#54. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 44)


          

surprisingly to me, but i actually agree with some of President Ed's policies.

Sophie

  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 09:54 PM
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#55. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 54)


          

Not surprising at all Sophie, much of it makes sense! Except the cocaine bit. The CIA and others have historically been involved in and control the vast majority of drug trafficking, along with the mob and cartels. The most intelligent thing to do would be to legalize drugs which would eliminate the the billions made from the drug market altogether. There was more drinking per capita during prohibition. People will always say "Yes" to drugs. Drugs are illegal for one reason only: money.

  

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AlFri Jan-24-03 10:10 PM
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#58. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 55)


  

          

History as written by who, HAL?



  

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EdGreeneSat Jan-25-03 04:49 AM
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#73. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 55)


          

>Not surprising at all Sophie, much of it makes sense! Except
>the cocaine bit. The CIA and others have historically been
>involved in and control the vast majority of drug
>trafficking, along with the mob and cartels. The most
>intelligent thing to do would be to legalize drugs which
>would eliminate the the billions made from the drug market
>altogether. There was more drinking per capita during
>prohibition. People will always say "Yes" to drugs. Drugs
>are illegal for one reason only: money.

Makes no difference who has been or is controlling the Cocaine trade today. Cutting off the processing chemicals shuts the Coacine train down because Crack and powder Cocaine becomes too expensive for just peons (street-inner city folks) to use.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 11:00 PM
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#110. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 73)


          

>Makes no difference who has been or is controlling the
>Cocaine trade today. Cutting off the processing chemicals
>shuts the Coacine train down because Crack and powder
>Cocaine becomes too expensive for just peons (street-inner
>city folks) to use.

You've missed the point.

  

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AlSat Jan-25-03 11:11 PM
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#112. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 110)


  

          

Actually, there was no point, as you twisted the facts to what you wanted to say instead of what really happened.



  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 11:13 PM
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#113. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 112)


          

The world according to Al.

  

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AlSat Jan-25-03 11:22 PM
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#114. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 113)


  

          

No, the world according to the historians and investigators who have looked into the allegations that the CIA controlled drugs anywhere in the world at anytime.

Bottom line? Nope. Never did. Individuals sometimes took part in the illicit trade or transportation of drugs. Indigenous peoples who the CIA supported for a variety of reasons often were drug growers or dealers, usually because that was a traditional role for them (dating back to the French and British Empires...the countries that actually encouraged the drug trade). Agents of the CIA (Air America for example) may have transported large amounts of drugs for those indigenous people...but they hauled whatever boxes that were put aboard, that was the job. It does not make the CIA an agent in the drug trade, or an agency that controlled it in any way, means or form.

Not "anonymous source" journalism. Not jumping to conclusions based on the actions of a few individuals. Actual investigation of the historical evidence. You know, the kind that can stand up to professional peer review?



  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 11:32 PM
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#115. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 114)


          

I suggest you read about Ollie North and his realtionship with Manuel Noriega. And that's just one example. Get back to me.

  

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AlSun Jan-26-03 06:26 AM
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#118. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 115)


  

          

Ollie North isn't the CIA. He never even worked for the CIA. He is an individual who misused his position and lied to the Senate.



  

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hal9000Fri Jan-24-03 10:09 PM
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#57. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 54)


          

By the way Sophie, I respect you for taking the time to read someone's post thoroughly, think about it clearly and then speak your mind regardless of whether you may be in the minority here.

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 04:07 AM
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#67. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 44)


  

          

>Sadaam has been spending $100,000's monthly on whiskey for
>his military.
>What kinda crap is that?

Don't forget about the tons of money he's putting into rebuilding the Tower of Babble.
But I guess according to some it's not about him, it's about the US and their love for oil and dislike for kids. We all know that if it wasn't for us Saddam would be taking very good care of the Kurd and Shi'ite children.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 04:21 AM
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#70. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 67)


          

You mean like our founding fathers did with blacks and the North American Indians?

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 05:24 AM
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#74. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 70)


  

          

Does that mean you think it's right?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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81 NewbeeSat Jan-25-03 07:16 AM
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#78. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 74)


  

          

I would vote for Ed for President, not because I support his views ,but I would have enjoyed watching both the Republican and
Democrat senators and representatives go nuts .I would have voted for Perot had he not feared the idea of BEING President and paniced and made himself unelectable.

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 07:55 AM
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#80. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 78)


          

"I would have voted for Perot..."

"Are you through? Can I talk now...can I...finish? Can...I...finish...."

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 07:52 AM
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#79. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 74)


          

In addition to a mineral and vitamin deficiency, you may have depleted electrolytes. In this crazy world we've created, basic good nutrition has never been so important.

  

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ukmitchSat Jan-25-03 08:04 AM
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#81. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 79)


  

          

And you can get it McDonald's, Hal.

Electrolytes with fries.

I know this, because we have two sets of Golden Arches in my small town.



Mitch

  

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81 NewbeeSat Jan-25-03 09:37 AM
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#82. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to ukmitch (Reply # 81)


  

          

Hi Hal,I'll tell you what I eat and drink if you will tell me what you drive.Frankly I have never understood people like you who never have a good word for this country.Have we made mistakes ?Have we mistreated minorities and even countries.Unfortunately we have.Your ilk only see our country with that view and when you can't find stories to support your views you attack and vilify politicians and officials to further your slanted vision.That done you go on to attack "Big Business" as another big bad problem for this country.You are damn luckey to live in a country where you have the freedom and right to spout your one sided view.
The USA is not perfect but it is a hell of a lot better than most other places on this planet.If you want to take a realistic view look at the countries that we have defeated in war.They are all better off than they were before.If it had ended the other way you might be picking rice now and keeping your mouth shut.
You are in a tizzy about oil and any one who has ever been in the business or near it is not to be trusted and if he is a goverment official is obviously corrupted .To you .sir I say you are obsessed with your false idealism and hope you are spouting what you do to create discussion so we all can see all sides of a story.
When I once told you that would take a side in a discussion that was not what I was in agreement so as to learn about human nature and other views ,you were totally against that.You said I should stand up for my views and derided my method.Frankly I enjoy some of your past posts especially since they always prevoke a lot of replys of all views but you have become predictable.Unfortunately it is always anti USA.Do you like anything this country has done.??If so please let me know what it is.It would be refreshing to hear it and boost my faith in my fellow man,Sincerely,

81 Newbee

  

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sophie tuckerSat Jan-25-03 10:43 AM
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#83. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 82)


          

hi, newbie!

what do YOU drive?

and do you ask everyone this to prove a gas-guzzling point?

Sophie (Bridgestone City Bike II)

  

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81 NewbeeSat Jan-25-03 11:36 AM
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#85. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 83)


  

          

Hi sophie,I just turned in my 1990 Honda Accord with 180,000+ miles on it for a 2002 Honda Accord Special Edition.Great car .My son in law has ALS and the drive to and from his home is 150 miles.Since we now go there often , and the hills are steep , I figured I would get a new one.At my age I figured I was luckey that it had'nt given me any problems and afraid that pushing it might with that milage.Hence a new one.Any thing else you would like to ask ?My life is an open book with hopefully many more pages yet to fill,Sincerely,John

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 10:53 AM
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#84. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 82)
Sat Jan-25-03 10:58 AM by Al

          

Freedom is something one is born with. No country or political system gives it to you. No country, no government, no person need authorize or give you permission to exercise it. That's what is meant by "Inalienable Rights." Jefferson and the framers recognized that these rights were inherent in the nature of man. The very foundation of government, therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people and of each individual composing their mass. In other words, freedom is a universal right, not just an American right and every human on the planet was born with that right.
I don't believe the framers intended for people to blindly support their government right or wrong. One should be critical in their thinking and support what one believes is right. To be critical of government activities is in keeping with the true spirit of the Declaration of Independence. So when I criticize America, I am not criticizing the American form of government or her ideals, but rather those who hold political office, or those in congress I believe are bought and sold to the highest bidder that influence America's foreign and/or domestic policies.

Hitler was a democratically elected leader. If German citizens had followed what they knew was right as individuals, instead of their government right or wrong, they would not have cheered him in the streets.

  

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labyrinthSat Jan-25-03 11:41 AM
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#86. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


          

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

  

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81 NewbeeSat Jan-25-03 12:00 PM
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#87. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


  

          

Hello again Hal,I agree with you about human rights but you seem to have a penchent for finding fault with EVERYTHING that this country has done or is doing.As for people disagreeing with Hitler,some did but they were not long for this earth.Piss and moan about what other countries don't do if you like and make meaningful comments about abuses of rights in this country but don't constantly make it sound like we are to blame for every evil in the world.My generation did not kill the Indians and steal their land.Get it behind you.They were killing each other (as I said to you in a previous post)long before we got here.They are now getting a little compensation through their casino I and my generation did not own slaves .I know that many of the men who helped write the Constitution did.BUT it does no good to dwell on it today.I'm sorry that we interned the
Japaneese and the two who are in my regular Thursday golf foursome are not angry with me.The retired Black school teacher,who is the other member has not shown any anger toward me.Surely you must think something is OK as well as all the FUBAR things you see in your view of our nation.Just once it would be pleasant to hear what if anything you think is right about this wonderful country we live in and can bitch about without fear.Can you think of one?Please try.

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 12:04 PM
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#88. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 87)


          



Satisfied?

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 12:49 PM
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#93. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 87)


          

"Despite the egalitarian rhetoric of the American Revolution and an attempt to place a proclamation in the Constitution for a "common right of the whole nation to the whole of the land," the powerful looked out for their own interests by changing Locke's insightful phrase: "all men are entitled to life, liberty and land." This powerful statement that all could understand coming from a well-read and respected philosopher was a threat to the monopolizers of land, so they restructured those words to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness." Knowledge of the substitution for phrases in America's Constitution which would protect every person's rights with phrases that protect only the rights of a few should alert one to check the meaning and purpose of all laws of all societies carefully."

-- J.W. Smith, Economic Democracy: The Political Struggle of the 21st Century


http://www.slonet.org/~ied/frthzqz.html

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:39 PM
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#105. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 87)


          

Newbee,

If you stood before an alien in a distant galaxy and the alien asked that you identify yourself, how would you identify yourself?

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 03:47 PM
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#106. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 105)


  

          

I see you found some crack too.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:49 PM
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#107. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 106)


          

Yeah...what's with this abundant supply lately? Cheap as dirt.

  

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freespiritSat Jan-25-03 06:20 PM
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#108. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 107)


          

EdGreene has already explained that.

  

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EdGreeneSun Jan-26-03 12:56 AM
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#116. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 87)


          

My
>generation did not kill the Indians and steal their land.Get
>it behind you.They were killing each other (as I said to you
>in a previous post)long before we got here.

But we (all of us, including you), benefit and benefitted from that stolen property. Have you, yourself, asked an Indian to forgive your ancestors?

I and
>my generation did not own slaves .I know that many of the
>men who helped write the Constitution did.BUT it does no
>good to dwell on it today.

Yeah, but had you lived in the South and had money, you more than likely would have owned slaves, since nearly everyone with money owned one or two. If slavery were allowed to day, there are folks who would own slaves just to say they did.

I'm sorry that we interned the
>Japaneese and the two who are in my regular Thursday golf
>foursome are not angry with me.The retired Black school
>teacher,who is the other member has not shown any anger
>toward me.

Oh, you're so pure, so innocent. Come off it! You like many, think you are innocent because your motives are a bit better and you may not harbor any anger towards others who are not of your skin color. But there are millions of people out there who do harbor ill-will towardss others and only because they are women or black or non-white.

>all the FUBAR things you see in your view of our nation.Just
>once it would be pleasant to hear what if anything you think
>is right about this wonderful country we live in and can
>bitch about without fear.Can you think of one?Please try.

I can't speak for them, but this nation is nearly ready to implode from the failing economy, tensions betwen the sexes, and races. 14,000 workers making over $150,000 a year were laid off just last week. This nation is teetering economically and you find nothing wrong with big corprorations ripping off the government or Americans?
You want to harangue Hal because he sees what you refuse to?

You tell me nothing is wrong with this nation we're in? Where the hell do you live, in a monastery or do you stay drunk/high all day? The only true innocents these days are the infants, toddlers and some teens. The rest of us? Heathens with only thin veneers of civilization covering our dark sides.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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hal9000Sun Jan-26-03 01:00 AM
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#117. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 116)


          

I'm in love...

  

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AlSun Jan-26-03 06:29 AM
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#119. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 116)


  

          


>I can't speak for them, but this nation is nearly ready to
>implode from the failing economy, tensions betwen the sexes,
>and races. 14,000 workers making over $150,000 a year were
>laid off just last week. This nation is teetering
>economically and you find nothing wrong with big
>corprorations ripping off the government or Americans?


teetering? Ever been in a country that actually was in economic dire straits? The US is not. Not even close.



  

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EdGreeneSun Jan-26-03 12:24 PM
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#123. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Al (Reply # 119)


          

>
>>I can't speak for them, but this nation is nearly ready to
>>implode from the failing economy, tensions betwen the sexes,
>>and races. 14,000 workers making over $150,000 a year were
>>laid off just last week. This nation is teetering
>>economically and you find nothing wrong with big
>>corprorations ripping off the government or Americans?
>
>
>teetering? Ever been in a country that actually was in
>economic dire straits? The US is not. Not even close.
____________________________________________
We are of the same peer group age-wise Al. Why is it you don't remember being poor (unless, of course, your Mums and Dad had money). There is a traditional response from those who grew up poor:
"We were poor by-damn, but we didn't know it."
That's the largest crock... my city just lost (Friday) 400 hospital workers from two of our major medical centers and 600 aircraft workers from the largest manufacturer of General Aviation aircraft in this country.
In a metropolitan area of 500,000 people, weekly hits like that has our economy "teetering" measured in large part by the long lines of previously high paid people standing in lines at charity institutions trying to make up the shortfall.
Our region just started getting hits like this past six months, while other parts of the country have been going downhill since 9/11.
There is no slack to be taken up this time, no jobs to equal the pay of workers who drag down $40,000 plus a year.
Our country is literally "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" so to speak.
There is no slack, none, nada out there anymore. Every week takes us further down the road to economic ruin. This time, entrepreneurial women starting businesses won't save the economy like before.
Another sign of the times? Trucks from furniture/finance companies repossesing their expensive goods from the now umemployed middle class workers.

You have not been actually reading my posts. Otherwise, you'd know I spend weeks every year doing missionary work in poor countries. And no, we are not near their economics straights. And no, we don't have to fall as far to destroy our manufacturing base, which is the real strength of America: our ability to produce goods. That, thanks in large part to Republicans and their "New World Order", has seen us bleed jobs overseas while Japan and Europe kick our butts with subsidized luxury automobiles and A-300 Airbuses.
Their "supply side" BS, the selling of our standing forests to Japan, where the raw trees are turned into value-added goods coming back to us by the shipload, the turning over of vast tracts of land to foreigners, the selling of cattle ranches to the Japanese, the infiltration of Japanese automakers who locate their plants in mostly rural, mostly backwards regions of the country where they don't have to face unions, and the local "folks" who would take any job, but who become literal slaves to the plants the Japanese build, ad I could go on. We've sold or lost huge areas of major downtown metropolitan areas to not for profit groups and hospitals.
Want to know what's also fueling our economic downturn? Every year since about 1986 when Reagan relaxed some "not for profit" laws, more than 30,000 not for profit groups a year have been given tax-free status. That's nearly 5 million organizations that are no more or less "Welfare" groups, sucking money out of the economy and not producing one ding-dong thing. Then we have that no good, low down, dirty rotten, son-of a-Bush Junior, passing out tax breaks like party favors to his ultra-rich friends.

What else would you call it when it seems the present administration seems content to have unemployment rise above 6.5% while they dilly-dally around on "Gulf War ll: Junior's Revenge"?

What are those Guards and Reservists going to do when they find out that maybe a third of them have lost their jobs while they fought "Gulf War ll"?

What could be worse for this country and our economy than to learn that hordes of our technically trained, formerly highly paid "unemployed" are really "unemployable" because there are no jobs to replace their old ones?

Sounds like a lot of "teetering" to me.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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AlSun Jan-26-03 02:21 PM
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#125. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 123)


  

          

You should have paid attention to the economic situations of those countries where you were a missionary. Either that, or you simply failed to go to the countries that do suffer from poverty and truly having economies on the edge of collapse. Japan is in far worse economic state than the United States, and they are in far better condition than North Korea, Somalia, Indonesia, and numerous other countries.

As for the present condition of the US economy, you can blame the loss of production on the unwillingness of Americans to work at competitive wages...although the fact is that if the US had retained the production capacity that you so strongly feel is important, the economy would be in significantly worse shape than it is.

Knowledge runs the US economy...not manpower. Those who haven't adapted get left behind. Nothing sinister about it, just economic Darwinism. Something that takes its toll worldwide.



  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 12:05 PM
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#89. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


  

          

You have a way of never answering the questions asked.
You're no better than the politicians.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 12:07 PM
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#90. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 89)
Sat Jan-25-03 12:07 PM

          

I'm not through...

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 12:11 PM
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#91. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 90)


  

          

Waiting.......

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 12:34 PM
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#92. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 91)


          



Don't you understand? You're either with us or against us! Now, Pledge Allegiance or Die!

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 12:56 PM
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#94. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 91)


          

http://www.cyberjournal.org/cj/authors/fresia/c3.shtml

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 02:20 PM
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#96. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 94)


  

          

So you can't come up with one thing that you like or would be willing to praise about the US?
Have you ever given consideration to moving somewhere that would suit you better?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:03 PM
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#98. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 96)


          

You assume quite a bit from a perceived refrain, don't you? A short little moment in time is all it takes for you to suggest one think of moving on. I'm glad you're not my landlord.

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 03:09 PM
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#99. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 98)


  

          

Refrain? You're dodging faster than Clinton when Reno asked him where her cigars went.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:16 PM
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#100. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 99)
Sat Jan-25-03 03:17 PM

          

Yeah know Myk, the moment someone starts demanding answers from me, I think: Screw You.

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 03:19 PM
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#101. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 100)


  

          


--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykSat Jan-25-03 03:21 PM
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#102. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 101)


  

          

If you were a hot dog, would you eat yourself?
How about if you really, REALLY liked hot dogs?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:26 PM
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#104. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 102)


          

What'd you do...score some crack?

  

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hal9000Sat Jan-25-03 03:21 PM
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#103. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to Myk (Reply # 101)


          

Myk,

Practice what you preach: Live free or die.

  

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AlSat Jan-25-03 11:02 PM
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#111. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


  

          

>Hitler was a democratically elected leader. If German
>citizens had followed what they knew was right as
>individuals, instead of their government right or wrong,
>they would not have cheered him in the streets.
>

Sorry about the "edit" above. I goofed and hit the edit button instead of the quote button.

HAL, the above is one of the more rediculous comments you have made. The German people did elect Hitler, they did exactly what they wanted to, and the majority supported him until sometime in 1944 or 45. They got the gov't and end they wanted, not "their government right or wrong". Those who didn't agree either fled or ended in concentration camps, and the bulk of Germans supported that as well. Really, read some John Locke. Also get a bit better grasp on history.



  

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EdGreeneSat Jan-25-03 09:51 PM
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#109. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 82)


          

>Hi Hal,
(snipped)
>Unfortunately it is always anti
>USA.Do you like anything this country has done.??If so
>please let me know what it is.It would be refreshing to hear
>it and boost my faith in my fellow man,Sincerely,

Because Hal, (and whoa, this is not in defense of Hal, but for freedom of expression), generally disagrees with you and your beliefs does not, at the same time, mean that anything Hal writes or believes is "anti-American."
It is dead wrong of you and others to infer or presume that because someone expresses themselves differently than you might, or defends or attacks (like Hal's "big oil will kill us all" mania), objects, people or beings (like them damn spotted owls), or things you yourself may blindly venerate, does not mean Hal or Ed or you are more "American" (inference "better") than Hal.

That's another thing Junior and too many Americans, many like yourself, do, put another person's patriotism to the question when the question need not be asked if the questioner has understood the speaker.
Me? I'm up to here (hands on waist), with all this ultra-patriotism since 9/11. Since 9/11, the streets of America, especially in small towns, reminded me of the fervor the Nazi's raised in Germans. All them flags and bunting, all the stiff-neck salutes and people, not raisng their arms in the Nazi salute, but bowing their heads, chins down, arms across their chests.
_________________________________________
I drive a (paid for) 1999 Buick LeSabre... and a tired, rusted out floorboards, windows won't roll all the way up, upholstery shot, paint faded 1977 Malibu I bought spanking brand new in May of 1977. It's a dog, having been used by three of my five daughters for a Taxi to and from school, a pick-up truck, a limousine, (when it was new), a "take my to the ______" car and all the other duties a second family car suffers through.
But it still gets me to the fishing hole and the wife doesn't give damn how much the fish bait stinks it up. It's so Godawful ulgy and rusty now that no one, not one person in my immeidate family wants to ride in it or use it for anything but jumpstarts or pushing their cars home if the jumpstart doesn't work.
(I Catfish, usually getting my bait in the water about 30 minutes before sundown, when them big suckers, who have been laying around all day, here the sundown dinner bell and come out to eat).
I usually fish in our local ponds, seeing as how they are stocked every week or so by the State Fish and Game Commission. The best part of course is the nearest pond (and one of the best fishing holes), is just 13 drive-time minutes from my front door.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

  

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scaramoucheThu May-22-03 01:53 AM
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"RE: Am I missing something???"


  

          

All this war talk.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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hal9000Sun Jan-26-03 07:05 AM
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#120. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 82)


          

"What people resent," she said, "is American unilateralism and the assumption that the United States belongs to a different planet ... (and) can ignore international law and the U.N. with impunity. I think that is the crux of the growing anti-American sentiment worldwide now."

She warned that a unilateral decision by the United States to go to war would fuel anti-American sentiment and set back Muslim societies, including Indonesia's efforts to achieve political stability and economic growth.

Economists warned that war also was the big unknown threatening economic recovery in 2003.

"We are sitting here looking forward to a set of risks - namely war - that have some truly profound downsides," Gail Fosler, chief economist at the Conference Board, a U.S. business group, told a panel surveying the global economy.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/5017055.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

  

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81 NewbeeSun Jan-26-03 12:10 PM
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#121. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 120)


  

          

As my grandmother used to ask:"What has that got to do with the price of eggs in China?"

81 Newbee

  

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hal9000Sun Jan-26-03 12:14 PM
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#122. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 121)


          

The same thing comes to mind when I read your posts.

  

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81 NewbeeThu May-22-03 01:53 AM
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#127. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 122)


  

          

I gather you were a fan of Wendell Wilkie."One World" would put you out of businessYou would go beserk with the whole world goverment to piss about.

81 Newbee

Attachment #1, (html file)
Attachment #2, (gif file)
Attachment #3, (gif file)

  

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hal9000Sun Jan-26-03 12:51 PM
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#124. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 127)


          

Luke
9:60

  

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81 NewbeeMon Jan-27-03 01:06 AM
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#126. "RE: Am I missing something???"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 124)


  

          

The devil quotes the scripture for his cause.AMEN.! }>

81 Newbee

  

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