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npmclSun Mar-02-08 01:24 PM
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"Horrifying and Unnecessary"
Sun Mar-02-08 01:26 PM by npmcl

  

          

Would a new president be able to undo this? From today's NYT.

Quote:
March 2, 2008
Editorial
Horrifying and Unnecessary

In the next few days President Bush is expected to again claim the right to order mistreatment of prisoners that any civilized person would regard as torture.

Mr. Bush is planning to veto a law that would require the C.I.A. and all the intelligence services to abide by the restrictions on holding and interrogating prisoners contained in the United States Army Field Manual. Mr. Bush says the Army rules are too restrictive.

What are these burdens? In addition to a blanket prohibition of torture, the manual specifically bans:

¶ Forcing a prisoner to be naked, perform sexual acts or pose in a sexual manner.

¶ Placing hoods or sacks over the head of a prisoner, and using duct tape over the eyes.

¶ Applying beatings, electric shocks, burns or other forms of physical pain.

¶ Waterboarding.

¶ Using military working dogs.

¶ Inducing hypothermia or heat injury.

¶ Conducting mock executions.

¶ Depriving a prisoner of necessary food, water or medical care.

Such practices have long been prohibited by American laws and international treaties respected by Republican and Democratic presidents. Mr. Bush, however, declared that he was unbound by the laws of civilization in responding to the barbarism of Sept. 11, 2001. And reports soon surfaced about the abuse of prisoners at detention centers in Afghanistan, the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and secret Central Intelligence Agency prisons.

Finally, in 2006, a compliant, Republican-controlled Congress outlawed the kinds of abuse and torture that Mr. Bush’s lawyers had turned into government policy. Unfortunately, Congress applied the prohibitions only to the military, and Mr. Bush immediately made clear that he would issue whatever orders he wanted to the intelligence agencies. In response, Congress approved an amendment to the intelligence budget bill this year that binds those agencies to the same rules as the military.

Opponents of Mr. Bush’s policies on prisoners have long argued that it is immoral, dangerous and counterproductive to abuse and torture prisoners. We do not hold out much hope that the president will heed our last, urgent plea not to veto this bill.

We urge him to read the Army Field Manual, which says: “Use of torture by U.S. personnel would bring discredit upon the U.S. and its armed forces while undermining domestic and international support for the war effort. It could also place U.S. and allied personnel in enemy hands at greater risk of abuse.”

He could listen to 43 retired generals or a bipartisan coalition of 18 former members of Congress, secretaries of state and national security officials who all supported the anti-torture amendment.

He could check the testimony of Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, who told Congress last week that waterboarding violated the Geneva Conventions.

Or he could read the letter that Gen. David Petraeus, the commander in Iraq, wrote to his troops.

“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy,” General Petraeus wrote. “They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary.”
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DJCSun Mar-02-08 01:59 PM
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#1. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)
Mon Mar-03-08 04:33 AM by DJC

  

          

If you knew that you could save a million lives by the use of water boarding would you sanction it? Or would you allow a million lives to be lost? Would you use it to save the lives of your family and friends?

If it saves the lives of Americans or American troops or anyones lives in the world I have no problem with it.

Now if it would save the lives of some here on this board well maybe I might not be in favor of it.

  

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MizeSun Mar-02-08 02:17 PM
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#2. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 1)


          

After watching the beheading videos, I have no problem if they use any method at the military's disposal to get the truth out of them

  

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JohnnyRebSun Mar-02-08 03:31 PM
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#7. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Mize (Reply # 2)


  

          

Am I correct in assuming that you two have no problems with the same methods being used on American soldiers?

  

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EdGreeneSun Mar-02-08 05:15 PM
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#16. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 7)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Am I correct in assuming that you two have no problems with the same methods being used on American soldiers?

Why are you asking a rhetorical question?

  

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bycycleSun Mar-02-08 10:35 PM
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#21. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Mize (Reply # 2)
Thu Mar-06-08 07:13 PM by Shelly

  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
After watching the beheading videos, I have no problem if they use any method at the military's disposal to get the truth out of them


Ah you got that right.

  

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npmclSun Mar-02-08 04:27 PM
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#9. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 1)


  

          

No doubt the Gestapo and KGB believed and used the same arguments.

  

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Dave101Sun Mar-02-08 06:00 PM
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#18. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 9)


  

          

Quote:
No doubt the Gestapo and KGB believed and used the same arguments


I don't think so. Those 2 outfits had no intention of saving lives.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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jazz4freeSun Mar-02-08 04:53 PM
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#13. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 1)


  

          

Quote:
if it would save the lives of some here on this board well maybe I might not be in favor of it


I trust you were smiling when you said that.

The dim-witted foolishness that some habitually display here is often nothing less than breath taking.

  

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Dave101Sun Mar-02-08 06:02 PM
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#19. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 13)


  

          

Quote:
The dim-witted foolishness that some habitually display here is often nothing less than breath taking


For God's sake you finally looked in the miror.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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bycycleSun Mar-02-08 10:39 PM
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#22. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 13)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
if it would save the lives of some here on this board well maybe I might not be in favor of it


I trust you were smiling when you said that.

The dim-witted foolishness that some habitually display here is often nothing less than breath taking.

I'll bet you are so smart you could pick up the clean end of a turd.

  

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jazz4freeSun Mar-02-08 11:57 PM
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#23. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to bycycle (Reply # 22)


  

          

Case in point.

  

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bycycleMon Mar-03-08 12:04 AM
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#24. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 23)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Case in point.


If the truth were known you are as welcome here as a fart in a space suit.

  

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jazz4freeMon Mar-03-08 12:34 AM
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#25. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to bycycle (Reply # 24)


  

          

Now, if I had even a miniscule of respect for you and your gutter aphorisms -- or, for that matter, your opinion -- I might have taken that to heart.

When those here I do respect tell me they share your assessment, I'll no longer burden you with my company.

  

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EdGreeneSun Mar-02-08 05:13 PM
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#15. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 1)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
If you knew that you could save a million lives by the use of water boarding would you sanction it? Or would you allow a million lives to be lost? Would you use it to save the lives of your family and friends?

I am one of millions of people who spent huge portions of their lives cowering under the threat of nuclear annihilation. I spent 35 months in post WW2 Germany, facing Russian and East German troops.
When I could see them, I feared them not. I came home, they no longer held me in terror: I knew, wth the same certainty I know my mother’s name we could whip their asses no matter what.

As a native born New Yorker (Queens), I felt pure rage at those who would dare attack my city.
But they never-ever have held me in fear.

What I fear now is the deterioration of the American psyche by this fear mongering administration who have, through lies and innuendo, brought Americans to a state where they see bogeymen behind every bush or tree.
Worse, the feeling of fear engendered by this administration is visceral-palpable, as in your question.
Quote:
If it saves the lives of Americans or American troops or anyones lives in the world I have no problem with it.

Worse with this administration, your attitude precisely reflects that of pre-WW2 Germans: they too were willing to sacrifice anything for the dear “Fatherland”:
what’s a few million Jews if by killing them, the Fatherland will be safe?
Quote:
if it would save the lives of some here on this board well maybe I might not be in favor of it.


Your Brown Shirt is showing; “Seig Heil!”

  

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VijayTue Mar-04-08 07:15 AM
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#62. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 1)


          

May be I am wrong... but weren't also outsourcing torture or by whatever name it is called to various countries?

  

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JordanSun Mar-02-08 02:33 PM
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#3. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

Could you be considered a Troll for posting this?

  

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Dave101Sun Mar-02-08 02:55 PM
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#5. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 3)


  

          

Quote:
Could you be considered a Troll for posting this?


No not Noreen. A troll has no identity which can be verified like chewie.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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npmclSun Mar-02-08 04:23 PM
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#8. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 3)


  

          

No, I was asking a question. So far it hasn't been answered.

  

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DavyWavySun Mar-02-08 04:32 PM
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#10. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 8)


  

          

"Would a new president be able to undo this? From today's NYT."

The answer is probably...but it begs the question, "Who's the President?" If it's Obama or Hillary, then yes...if it's McCain, then
incredibly, no, he probably wouldn't change it...


DavyWavy -

  

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JPSun Mar-02-08 04:56 PM
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#14. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DavyWavy (Reply # 10)


          

I wouldn't be completely sure that McCain would not change it. In fact, he might be more motivated than the other candidates because of his war time experience.
JP

  

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EdGreeneSun Mar-02-08 05:16 PM
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#17. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DavyWavy (Reply # 10)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
"Would a new president be able to undo this? From today's NYT."

The answer is probably...but it begs the question, "Who's the President?" If it's Obama or Hillary, then yes...if it's McCain, then
incredibly, no, he probably wouldn't change it...

Agreed.

  

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jasonlevineMon Mar-03-08 01:21 PM
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#38. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DavyWavy (Reply # 10)


  

          

Actually, before McCain became the all-but-confirmed Republican nominee, I felt that he (and possibly Ron Paul) were the only Republicans who would be willing to ban torture as an information gathering mechanism. While Rudy Guiliani was busy losing my respect my equating waterboarding a terrorist with some "harsh questioning" techniques that he took with mobsters, McCain was recounting how he was tortured and how he thought that Americans shouldn't be a party to those tactics.

I'm not a big fan of McCain and he's not very likely to get my vote at all, but that's at least one good thing I can say about him. He's very anti-torture.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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DavyWavyMon Mar-03-08 09:41 PM
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#49. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 38)


  

          

I hope you are right about McCain, Jason...


DavyWavy -

  

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_Chewy_Mon Mar-03-08 01:01 AM
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#27. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 3)
Mon Mar-03-08 01:08 AM by _Chewy_

  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Could you be considered a Troll for posting this?


I find it amusing and pathetic that a person like you who posts threads like this about the Canadians is now criticizing Noreen for posting a simple question.

And of course we can't leave out Davey boy the resident quack job who can't keep his mouth shut even after being put in his place by Grogan (a fellow Canadian) who rarely ever jumps into the OT forum to crticize anyone. Just imagine how much you had to piss him off for him to say that to you. But of course you're too busy being a troll and all-around jackass winner to even think about his words.

http://www.pcqanda.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=149405&mesg_id=149405#149577

Seems like the two biggest cry babies we have on the boards just can't stop their true colors from showing like the true turds that they are.

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 02:36 AM
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#29. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to _Chewy_ (Reply # 27)


  

          

Yea well Grogan deletes your useless scumbag posts before they even have the chance to see the light. Like the nasty you made to nightlyreader that was unwarranted was gone in 5 minutes. Sais a lot about a moron who works for mmw with a bunch of registry lives. LOL

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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ablibMon Mar-03-08 04:19 AM
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#30. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 3)
Mon Mar-03-08 04:20 AM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
Could you be considered a Troll for posting this?



No, I don't think so. Posts 22, 24 & 27 definitely fit the bill though.

Visit the Basement

  

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DJCMon Mar-03-08 04:40 AM
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#31. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 30)


  

          

The President can change many things of the previous presdent through excutive orders. Even i if congress did not pass a law banning torture it could be banned by an executive order. In my response i was only refering to water boarding and sleep deprevation. Hell many a time in different opertions military men are up for hours at a time to accopmplish the mission. I knw of people that stayed awake at their jobs for over 72 hours

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 02:24 PM
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#39. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 31)


  

          

Yes, I frequently had to stay awake well over 72 hours, but I was never forcibly deprived of sleep for 30 days. You know nothing of torture.

Shelly

  

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DJCMon Mar-03-08 02:27 PM
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#41. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 39)


  

          

I know Shelly.
The unbridled masses of readers know that you have all the answers.

  

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jasonlevineMon Mar-03-08 08:50 PM
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#46. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 41)


  

          

I think that Shelly's point was that even he doesn't know first-hand what torture is like. However, any civilized individual should be horrified by the suggestion of using torture to gain information. Especially when torture is notorious for producing faulty information.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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JordanMon Mar-03-08 09:02 PM
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#47. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 46)


  

          

Quote:
Especially when torture is notorious for producing faulty information.

Torture as defined by whom?. Notorious as defined by whom?
I seriously doubt that 'torture' produces faulty information. If it did why would any serious country or group employ the techniques?
The personnel in the business of gathering intelligence to understand the enemy and its plans and to thwart drastic consequences are not interested in wasting their time with non-productive action.

  

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JohnnyRebMon Mar-03-08 09:23 PM
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#48. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 47)


  

          

Quote:
why would any serious country or group employ the techniques


There, my intellectually challenged friend, lies the answer. NO serious country or group uses these techniques. The US lost credibility 8 years ago. No other "civilized" country stoops so low.

I agree with you that torture can reveal important information. So can shooting entire villages one by one until the answer comes out. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, it is not about expedience. It is about civilization.

You, DJC, and a few other troglodytes on this board seem to think the end justifies the means. That is why the rest of us feel sorry for you.

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 09:54 PM
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#50. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 48)


  

          

Quote:
You, DJC, and a few other troglodytes on this board seem to think the end justifies the means. That is why the rest of us feel sorry for you.


Psst Johnny, names, names. few other troglodytes the rest of us

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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JohnnyRebMon Mar-03-08 09:57 PM
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#51. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Dave101 (Reply # 50)


  

          

Do you do ANYTHING except troll around? After you last implosion I thought (hoped) we had seen the last of you. Unfortunately, as with all your posts, you disappointed....

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 10:01 PM
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#52. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 51)


  

          

Quote:
After you last implosion
Bad bada.

Unfortunatly my demands were not met.

You still didn't answer the question.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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JohnnyRebMon Mar-03-08 10:06 PM
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#55. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Dave101 (Reply # 52)


  

          

You are an idiot. You want me to spell it out, since you are apparently unable to read and comprehend?

OK:

Jordan, Mize, DJC, Bycycle, and probably you. You haven't stated any real support yet, but your history of redneck sympathies makes believe that you probably think torture is OK.

Happy now?

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 10:15 PM
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#57. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 55)


  

          

Quote:
You haven't stated any real support yet


That's right & I don't support it. Hmm "redneck" I always thought they were from the far left. Didn't have to call me an idiot though

Yea I'm happy at least you have the you know what to name names.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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Dave101Tue Mar-04-08 12:21 AM
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#59. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 55)


  

          

Quote:
Jordan, Mize, DJC, Bycycle, and probably you. You haven't stated any real support yet, but your history of redneck sympathies makes believe that you probably think torture is OK


Thinking on this, the difference between James, you & another few select & the names you named & others you never agree with is that we are not always in agreement with each other. ("we" as in the majority of posters with their own opinions)

In other words we all have different opinions depending on the topic.
On the other hand the (quoting Mike) "intellectuals" or as bobw sais "majestics" your always in agreement on any topic. That should be virtually impossible but it's a fact.

So that Johnny means:

1: your afraid to state your own opinion
2: don't want to alienate your buddies
3: like to look good siding with the intellectuals
4: don't like the author
5: or you just don't have the you know what.

Which one is it?

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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bobwTue Mar-04-08 12:35 AM
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#60. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Dave101 (Reply # 59)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Jordan, Mize, DJC, Bycycle, and probably you. You haven't stated any real support yet, but your history of redneck sympathies makes believe that you probably think torture is OK


Thinking on this, the difference between James, you & another few select & the names you named & others you never agree with is that we are not always in agreement with each other. ("we" as in the majority of posters with their own opinions)

In other words we all have different opinions depending on the topic.
On the other hand the (quoting Mike) "intellectuals" or as bobw sais "majestics" your always in agreement on any topic. That should be virtually impossible but it's a fact.

So that Johnny means:

1: your afraid to state your own opinion
2: don't want to alienate your buddies
3: like to look good siding with the intellectuals
4: don't like the author
5: or you just don't have the you know what.

Which one is it?

Right on Dave " That's pretty much it in a nutshell.If it weren't for us idiots as we are often depicted .this OT forum would cease to exist.The majestics would not have anyone to name call and denigrate.

Microsoft Windows XP Home
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Dave101Tue Mar-04-08 01:19 AM
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#61. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to bobw (Reply # 60)


  

          

LOL now at about 12 am our independant TROLL _Chewy_, aka Johnjohn will come in with some stupidity troll of a reply with a few search of old threads to boot & disappear back to his cave. Boy this OT sure is predictable.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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jazz4freeMon Mar-03-08 10:04 PM
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#53. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 51)


  

          

Don't bite.

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 10:05 PM
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#54. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 53)


  

          

Or I'll set the hook.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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JohnnyRebMon Mar-03-08 10:07 PM
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#56. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 53)


  

          

I bit. But this is the last time. Like you, Dave is now persona non grata to me too.

  

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Dave101Mon Mar-03-08 10:17 PM
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#58. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 56)


  

          

Ah come on you two, is this a tag team now?

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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jasonlevineTue Mar-04-08 04:38 PM
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#67. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 47)


  

          

Torture is defined (and prohibited) by various international laws.

As far as it being unreliable, General Petraeus himself denounces the use of torture. See KJT\'s post below for the full text, but the relevant quote is:

Quote:
Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone “talk”; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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JordanTue Mar-04-08 06:39 PM
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#68. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 67)


  

          

Article 1 of your link uses terms that are too broad to have any real meaning. Under those rules just the simple act of interrogation could be claimed to be mentally intimidating.

  

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jazz4freeTue Mar-04-08 07:14 PM
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#70. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 68)


  

          

Quote:
Article 1 of your link uses terms that are too broad to have any real meaning. Under those rules just the simple act of interrogation could be claimed to be mentally intimidating.


No. Perhaps if you read with better attention you would understand what has been written.

Here it is unnecessarily broken down -- the bracketed parts are mine:

Article 1
1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, (or if this severe pain or suffering is used in) punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or (if this severe pain or suffering is used in) intimidating or coercing him or a third person...

There is nothing obscure in that, its meaning is painfully obvious. Forgive the bad pun...

  

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Dave101Sun Mar-02-08 02:54 PM
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#4. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

At least they'll still have their heads on their shoulders.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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scaramoucheSun Mar-02-08 03:13 PM
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#6. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

Having had some interrogation experience in Vietnam I am reluctant to accept any information gained by torture. Prisoners will say and do anything to make you stop.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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JPSun Mar-02-08 04:34 PM
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#11. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)
Sun Mar-02-08 04:42 PM by JP

          

If legislation passed by Congress goes to the President, then the President can decide to veto it or sign it, where it then becomes law. Congress can then choose to vote to over ride the veto, which then becomes law without the signature of the President.

When another President takes office, that person can urge Congress to change previous legislation, which Congress can do by passing new legislation. But a new President cannot simply override the veto of a previous President and sign a bill into law.

It's all about checks and balances. No one in the U.S. government holds absolute power.
JP

  

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npmclSun Mar-02-08 04:45 PM
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#12. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JP (Reply # 11)


  

          

Thanks JP and Davy.

  

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Paul DSun Mar-02-08 08:11 PM
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#20. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JP (Reply # 11)


  

          


At last. The question answered. Thankyou.



Paul D

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 12:53 AM
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#26. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

The answer is yes.

No matter who is elected in November all behavior barred by the Geneva Convention will stop. All three candidates have taken firm stands on ending torture, especially John McCain who endured five years of torture. To this day his arms and shoulders are so damaged that he is unable to comb his own hair.

Shelly

  

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JPMon Mar-03-08 02:17 AM
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#28. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 26)


          

I should point out that while there isn't a law (or laws) specifically addressing this issue, there is a code of conduct as has been pointed out. Those who choose to violate that code of conduct can be held accountable for their actions. It has happened to many who have violated it in the past.
JP

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 02:27 PM
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#40. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to JP (Reply # 28)


  

          

There most certainly are laws in this country against cruel and unusual punishment.

Shelly

  

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IanwMon Mar-03-08 08:45 AM
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#32. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


          

Do unto them as they do onto you.
An eye for an eye.

I am "saying" this in general, that is, not directing it to anyone in particular.
I notice the people who do not like torture don't say anything about the torture, killings etc that the scum, filth & vermin does. Yet they are vocifuris in condemming action taken against them.
Torturing the filth can and has resulted in obtaining much good information.

One example.
When that vermin the IRA started off in NI the army used "mild" torture to get info, and they they got a lot. Then Amnesty just had to intervene and Ted Heath the then PM stopped it. The mutilating, torture, tying drivers to the steering wheel to plant a bomb, ripping testicles off and stuffing them into mouths, savage beatings, you know nothing about it, I could go on and on.
where did the IRA get most of their money. The USA.
Do you get the picture.

Think on this, Have you had a relative, a friend who has been tortured by the vermin ?
No, how would you feel if they did.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enjoy life while you can, don't try when you can't 'cos you won't, then it will be too late.

Ianw

  

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KJTMon Mar-03-08 09:59 AM
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#33. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Ianw (Reply # 32)


  

          

Quote:
Have you had a relative, a friend who has been tortured by the vermin ?


Yes. And I still condemn torture, and the plans to implement/allow torture. Once we begin to use the methods of the "vermin", we become no better than the "vermin".

One of the greatest nations in the history of the world has no need to resort to torture. We lead by example, not by emulating the "vermin".

Jim.

  

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npmclMon Mar-03-08 10:59 AM
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#34. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to KJT (Reply # 33)


  

          

Quote:
Yes. And I still condemn torture, and the plans to implement/allow torture. Once we begin to use the methods of the "vermin", we become no better than the "vermin".

One of the greatest nations in the history of the world has no need to resort to torture. We lead by example, not by emulating the "vermin".
Well said, Jim. The latter sentence is also applicable to this nation which was once also "one of the greatest nations in the history of the world".

  

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DJCMon Mar-03-08 11:44 AM
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#35. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 34)


  

          

When I was in Military there was a story going around why some terrorists had not kidnapped Russians in the Middle east. Here is the answer the story talked about. Some Russians were kidnapped, Russia would not deal. The Russians were killed no news stories about it the Russians did not whine and cry they acted. A couple of terrorists were kidnapped tortured and killed with their penis and balls shoved in their mouths, bodies dumped where the terrorists could find them. Guess what the Russians never had a problem again in middle east this was in late 70's and early 80's before fall of USSR. The Russians understood the use of power and its enemies also understood this fact.

  

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npmclMon Mar-03-08 11:47 AM
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#36. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 35)


  

          

No doubt there were a lot of "stories" going around, there always are.

  

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JordanMon Mar-03-08 12:38 PM
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#37. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 36)


  

          

Including stories about 'torture'. Defining torture is like defining what is is.

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 02:43 PM
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#43. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 37)


  

          

Stick to copy and pasting. The stultifying stupidity of your original posts are beyond belief.

Shelly

  

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JordanMon Mar-03-08 04:59 PM
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#45. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 43)


  

          

I take great pride in holding the lead for personal insults by you.

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 02:40 PM
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#42. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 35)


  

          

I remember the Nazis and the Japanese using the same philosophy. It was very effective when they murdered a hundred civilians, men women and children, for the death of one soldier.

Perhaps that endeared them to you, but not to me or any other civilized human being. They, like your marginally sentient friends currently in power in Washington, always wind up where they belong - on the dung heap of history.

Shelly

  

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ShellyMon Mar-03-08 02:49 PM
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#44. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Ianw (Reply # 32)


  

          

Quote:
Have you had a relative, a friend who has been tortured by the vermin ?


Yes, tortured and burned alive. But I never lost my own humanity, If I had they would have won.

Shelly

  

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VijayTue Mar-04-08 07:20 AM
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#63. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 44)


          

Shelly ,

Do the best of my knowledge..Chemical interrogation is allowed/not specifically banned?

  

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ShellyTue Mar-04-08 02:40 PM
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#64. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Vijay (Reply # 63)


  

          

Chemical interrogation is extremely unreliable. It is hard to separate truth from induced psychosis.

Shelly

  

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Paul DTue Mar-04-08 04:03 PM
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#65. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 64)


  

          


And many say the same is true of torture.



Paul D

  

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KJTTue Mar-04-08 04:11 PM
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#66. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Paul D (Reply # 65)


  

          

Quote:
HEADQUARTERS
Multi-National Force—Iraq
Baghdad, Iraq
APO AE 09342-1400

10 May 2007

Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen serving in Multi-National Force—Iraq:

Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we—not our enemies—occupy the moral high ground. This strategy has shown results in recent months. Al Qaeda’s indiscriminate attacks, for example, have finally started to turn a substantial portion of the Iraqi population against it.

In view of this, I was concerned by the results of a recently released survey conducted last fall in Iraq that revealed an apparent unwillingness on the part of some US personnel to report illegal actions taken by fellow members of their units. The study also indicated that a small percentage of those surveyed may have mistreated noncombatants. This survey should spur reflection on our conduct in combat.

I fully appreciate the emotions that one experiences in Iraq. I also know firsthand the bonds between members of the “brotherhood of the close fight.” Seeing a fellow trooper killed by a barbaric enemy can spark frustration, anger, and a desire for immediate revenge. As hard as it might be, however, we must not let these emotions lead us—or our comrades in arms—to commit hasty, illegal actions. In the event that we witness or hear of such actions, we must not let our bonds prevent us from speaking up.

Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone “talk”; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.

We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings. Stress caused by lengthy deployments and combat is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign that we are human. If you feel such stress, do not hesitate to talk to your chain of command, your chaplain, or a medical expert.

We should use the survey results to renew our commitment to the values and standards that make us who we are and to spur re-examination of these issues. Leaders, in particular, need to discuss these issues with their troopers—and, as always, they need to set the right example and strive to ensure proper conduct. We should never underestimate the importance of good leadership and the difference it can make.

Thanks for what you continue to do. It is an honor to serve with each of you.


David H. Petraeus
General, United States Army
Commanding

  

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ShellyTue Mar-04-08 07:10 PM
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#69. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to KJT (Reply # 66)


  

          

Well stated and reassuring. I have always felt that someone condoning torture, whether toward an animal or another human, is several morals short of being considered a human being themselves. No behavior by others can possibly justify a descent into savagery on our part.

Shelly

  

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Bob HWed Mar-05-08 12:35 AM
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#71. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 69)
Wed Mar-05-08 12:36 AM by Bob H

  

          

Agree, but it's hard to maintain the course when faced with the beheadings and other atrocities perpetrated on our own.

ed: spelling



  

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jasonlevineWed Mar-05-08 02:49 AM
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#72. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 71)


  

          

Doing the right thing is rarely easy. It would be quite easy to give in to feelings of rage and revenge and commit atrocities left and right in the name of "getting even." But we're supposed to be better than that. So we choose (hopefully) to rise above the barbaric tactics of our enemies and take the high road.

- Jason Levine
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ablibWed Mar-05-08 03:08 AM
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#73. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

What's "Horrifying and Unnecessary" is that even if we were a model country, one that doesn't condone torture, we would still not satisfy the critics of the world.


You would be posting something else that is "Horrifying and Unnecessary" about the United States.

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npmclWed Mar-05-08 08:26 AM
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#74. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 73)


  

          

The heading was that of the article in the NYT.

  

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ablibWed Mar-05-08 01:05 PM
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#76. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 74)


  

          

ok?

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npmclWed Mar-05-08 03:59 PM
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#81. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 76)


  

          

Not quite sure what the question mark means in this instance, Adam. If you are referring to any bad feeling between us I can assure you that I regard you as a friend as I do most people on this forum however much I may occasionally disagree with you or them.

  

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ablibThu Mar-06-08 01:10 PM
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#87. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 81)
Thu Mar-06-08 01:10 PM by ablib

  

          

Oh no! There are NO bad feelings here Noreen, not now or ever. I very much appreciate the company of you, James, et al.


It was nothing like that. I was just posting a general comment that even if we did comply with the Geneva Convention rules on torture, people would find something else to pick us apart on. We'll never be perfect. Humans, will never be perfect. There will always be something negative to comment on.

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jazz4freeWed Mar-05-08 09:17 AM
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#75. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 73)


  

          

Awwww...

  

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bobwWed Mar-05-08 01:55 PM
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#77. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

Something to think on. This is a letters to the editor of a local newspaper that I read.

Ridiculous Hyperbole

The ridiculous hyperbole in the recent guest editorial on waterboarding equating it's use to crimes against humanity would be laughable were the matter not so serious. the author will have to do a much better job explaining how the limited application of this method to a few thugs ,whose attack killed 3000 of our fellow Americans and undoubtedaly provided a lifetime of mental torture for countless others,in any way equates to genocides and murders which are generally understood as crimes against humanity.

Ronald E Brook
Huntsville Al

Microsoft Windows XP Home
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chasWed Mar-05-08 02:23 PM
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#78. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


          

Noreen,

Being criticized by ablib is rather like being " savaged by a dead sheep"

  

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DJCWed Mar-05-08 02:50 PM
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#79. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to chas (Reply # 78)


  

          

I wonder if some of you would consider 3 days of bread and water only extreme. This is authorized as punishment for our own troops by the UCMJ

  

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ablibWed Mar-05-08 02:57 PM
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#80. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to DJC (Reply # 79)


  

          

Quote:
I wonder if some of you would consider 3 days of bread and water only extreme.



To the morbidly obese that probably is torture.



To me living without air conditioning is torture.



Who defines what is and isn't torture?

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jazz4freeWed Mar-05-08 04:53 PM
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#82. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 80)


  

          

Living without air conditioning?

Hell, Whipper, if torture is indeed effective, it would be a breeze to break you.

After all the discussion that has gone on in this thread, you still need someone to define torture for you?

Or maybe it's that you feel torture is a subjective thing, open to individual interpretation -- in your case a sultry day without the old ac, or in Torquemada's, changing the basic shape of one's skull in a wine press.

You should be proud. You share that opinion with exalted company -- Heinrich Himmler and Josef Mengele come instantly to mind.

You are an endless source of wonder and amusement.

  

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ablibThu Mar-06-08 01:01 PM
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#86. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 82)


  

          

Quote:
You are an endless source of wonder and amusement



What's really an endless source of wonder and amusement is reading how much you really lack an intellectual breadth that you have to reference the Nazi's in every other thread.


Sad indeed.


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jazz4freeThu Mar-06-08 05:26 PM
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#89. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 86)


  

          

Good one, Whipper.

You must have taken your pill this morning.

  

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ablibThu Mar-06-08 05:34 PM
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#90. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 89)


  

          

It's going to take two weeks for it to kick in though.

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jazz4freeThu Mar-06-08 05:56 PM
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#91. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 90)


  

          

Well, because you've been on them for a while, probably there was enough chemical residue in your frontal lobe to carry you over the hump -- except for that one minor glitch where you confused the lack of air conditioning with torture.

But just goes to show, you gotta stick with the meds. You don't wanna be forced to trade them in for a rubber room without ac.

  

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npmclWed Mar-05-08 05:06 PM
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#83. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 80)


  

          

Adam, you're not really that naive are you?

  

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jazz4freeWed Mar-05-08 05:31 PM
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#84. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 83)
Wed Mar-05-08 05:32 PM by jazz4free

  

          

He probably forgot to take his anti-obtuse meds this morning.

And the doc warned him that if he skipped a day it would take at least two weeks for them to kick back in.

So it looks like for the next fortnight-or-so we're in for a rough ride.

  

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ablibThu Mar-06-08 12:54 PM
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#85. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 83)


  

          

What!?


It would seem that MANY people are having problems defining what is torture and what isn't.


Is that not true? We can all agree on what is and isn't torture?




I don't think that's the case which led me to posit the question.

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npmclThu Mar-06-08 05:05 PM
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#88. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to ablib (Reply # 85)
Thu Mar-06-08 05:29 PM by npmcl

  

          

Quote:
To me living without air conditioning is torture.
I think that we can agree that that isn't torture, that's just discomfort.

  

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ablibThu Mar-06-08 06:14 PM
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#92. "RE: Horrifying and Unnecessary"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 88)


  

          

Quote:
that's just discomfort


I agree

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