http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/general/2008/01/13/Killings.After.Combat/

Such a high number. Can they all be attributed to being in combat??

You can read the full (long) article here. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/13/america/vets.php
You can read also read the list of names and circumstances.

Of course it's true. This has always been an artifact of war. Combat affects those who engage in it. Iraq is producing the highest percentage of post traumatic stress cases of any war in recent history, and they are not getting the treatment they deserve from the government.

Shelly

Shelly I agree. PTSD has showed it ugly head in all wars only now it is showing up in the media more. But I was wondering about the amount of incidents and the relation to combat.

I visit Walter Reed, and Bethesda when my son has appointments there. The only soldiers getting much attention in this area are the ones hospitalized for other reasons as well as PTSD. Soldiers ask me to check on a buddy because they are worried about him. I ask if they relayed this info to their unit reps or hospital staff and they tell me yes but they don't care. I tried to find something out once and was stonewalled. Elected officals will do nothing till it affects them outright, military leaders say he can take care of himself hes a big boy now.

I have had 2 sons and a daughter in law there(she 4 3rd time) and I watch them carefully. Do I trust them, HELL YES I do, but PTSD strikes differently in different people.

IHT is simply the 'lefter' wing of the NYT Corp.

Whatever your opinion of the IHT/NYT it doesn't make their list of names and circumstances untrue unless you have some proof to that effect.

Some interesting comments on news channels about this and the comparison to civilian crimes and accidents. It is showing the slant that the NYT took and did'nt compare. As soon as I can find a link to this from any news station will give you one.

Thanks Noreen ,I found myself wondering about the victims being "gang members".I really have difficulty accepting the premise supported by the statistics without MORE imformation and comparisons.I also wondered the intent of looking for such statistical results or what the search was for ,if it was not the "answer" they came up with!

81 Newbee

It is becoming more and more difficult for me to believe anything I read or hear . And damn little of what I see . I am thankfully not gullible enough to believe this proproganda.And that's my prerogative. the rest may believe as they please.

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Do you believe that the names and circumstances are false?

Statistics page here

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/03/war-list-oefoif-statistics.html

from the home page here

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2006/04/ptsd-statistics-wwii-to-iraq.html


Keep on these so called public servants we elect into office. Oppose cuts to the V.A., and if you see a veteran or someone in uniform on the street, in a mall, etc. Thank them for their service to our country. You wouldn't believe how you can brighten the day of a Veteran just through that simple act of kindness

Yes I agree it has happened to me. I do it a lot myself and it does raise the question why its not being done more.

Sadly, our military has a long history of denying that PTSD even exists. Since PTSD does indeed exist, and since so many of our seriously wounded are surviving, whose injuries would have certainly been fatal in previos wars, we will be paying dearly for this war for another 60 years at least, not to mention the cost to so many of our bravest, for which no monitary price can ever be assessed.

Shelly

Any one who has ever really been in a combat situation (being shot at/having to shoot back) learn very fast how to set aside any civilian upbringing and immediately utilize the training drilled into them so that when the time came they would be able to kill another human.

It takes around two to four months to learn that lesson and for some it takes a lifetime to unlearn.

That IMHO can be the major reason why there are many veterans serving time in jails for homicide.

I would like to make clear that there is a major difference between a combat veteran and a veteran that was in a combat zone so that no one thinks all veterans are experienced killers or have the possibility to be one.

A combat veteran is some one who was in a shooting situation most of their time in a combat zone.

A combat zone is a place/area/country that has many individuals who never see combat and are in many ways the lucky ones, (and I’m not ashamed to say this) usually the ones with all the so call BS war stories.

Combat is not anything like what you see in any war movie. No movie or written word can ever really describe what combat is really like.

You have to experience it day after day to really know.

Approximately eighty to eighty-five percent of all the troops in any combat zone NEVER, and I must repeat NEVER see or even come close to combat.

They are there in that combat zone for support and only support.

It has been estimated that it takes at least four rear echelon personnel to keep a supply line open and running to keep only one individual supplied well enough so that that one individual can keep the fight going at the opposition’s front door.

The small percentage left that are doing most of the fighting must utilize the training they received in such a way that they become very good at doing their job without any thought of hesitation or regret.

The thing with that frame of mind once it is reached is it might make an individual a good combat soldier, but at the same time leave that individual with a situation that no one has yet figured out way to reverse.

When a veterans job is done they are just handed a honorable discharge, a few medals, carfare to get back home and let loose back into a society with the kind of skills that no one in their right mind has a need for.

I know from my own experience, where at one moment I was under heavy fire and one or two days later I was back home.

Every simple little thing that I came in contact with became something I reacted to with the mind of a combat soldier.

Simple things like drinking out of a real glass rather than a canteen.

Walking along a quite sidewalk rather than down a trail that might lead to a deadly ambush.

Trying to forget the look of horror and pain on the faces of those I became close friends with that died by my side along with the faces of those lives I ended.

I could go on for hours describing what changes a combat veteran must to go through to come home and become a civilian again.

It took months of some really hard work for me to create a will to reverse the frame of mind I came home with.

And I am sorry to say that there are so many that I know and have come in contact with who are living in a form of personal hell because they in their own minds never really came all the way home.

Many years ago when our citizens went to war they did their best to win.

Most came home, they were greeted by all as heroes, there were parades for them, etc. and they were allow to ease themselves back into society.

Now days it’s a half assed welcome home, if any.

In some cases, here’s your old job back, since you came back I had to fire some one that did it better than you did, now pick up the pieces from where you left off and lets get on with things as though nothing interfered with anything.

Today it’s not only the VA’s job to help veterans to readjust to a normal life but all of us.

No matter what any one thinks of our homeland or theirs, without the sacrifices that have been made and are being made by many of our veterans, there is a very good possibility that our homelands might not be what they are or be around much longer.

Interesting observations. Since I was one of those "non-combat" personnel, I can see this very clearly. I'd love to be in a situation where I could help but I'm afraid all I can do is lend my mental, and perhaps vocal support.

I have no bones to pick with the NY media, thus, accept their story on its face.

What needs to be said is there are millions of us who served in Infantry-slog-it-out-for-days combat. Those of us who survived more or less intact comprise those like me who had a wholesome nuclear family and my own wife and children to love-nurture and raise when we returned.
I came back, decompressed for a few months (8) and went to work for THE BOEING Company.
In the larger scheme of things, I literally had no time to relive the "horrors of war".

Then there are those who had/have no nuclear family when they left and none on their return. They had/have no families, wives, no children-no nothing to keep them rooted.
Often enough, they turn to drugs and all the horrors that attend that world.

Then we have those who use and used drugs and those who more than likely would not have been found "fit" to serve in peacetime military.
As standards are relaxed, more and more less than desirables are and have been accepted into our military, trained then pitched headfirst into war, many of them still children at heart.
Then the criminal element is to be factored in.
Yes, we take criminals and other minor miscreants desperately needed to fill the ever thing ranks.

Face it: some are clearly mentally disturbed/defectives in the clinical and moral sense.
Teach them how violence is an answer (else why war?).
Dehumanize their enemy, encourage all the previously corrupted hatreds in them, then turn them lose on the larger population when they return.
_________________________
The fact of the matter is we are damn lucky there are so few* of them; considering the alternatives.
*So few: we need to know how many Gulf War ll Veterans there are vis-à-vis the sesational yellow-journalistic numbers in the OP?

Long ago there was a TV series,don't remember the exact title.I do remember that one of the opening statements was there are 10.000.000 stories of the naked city .this is only one of them. Holds true today in many aspects. as I said before ,believe as you wish. And I shall do the same,and not necessarily news paper reports ,regardless of their source,

Another slant on this issue !Cut and pasted from another forum.

New York Slime is nothing more than a propaganda machine

There is surely economic and social harm to individual vets as a direct result of such slanderous propaganda. I hope they can hold New York Slimes libel for slander of our vets.

New York Times ‘Killer Vet’ Story
Exposed as Erroneous by Pro-Troop Group
SACRAMENTO- Move America Forward (website: www.MoveAmericaForward.org), the nation’s largest grassroots pro-troop organization, today announced that after vetting the numbers cited by The New York Times in their Sunday, January 13, 2008 story, “Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles,” it became clear that the Times had engaged in demonstrably erroneous and false reporting.

It took seven New York Times researchers to find 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in the United States, or were charged with one, upon returning home to this country.
The Times made the false conclusion that: “Taken together, they paint the patchwork of a quiet phenomenon, tracing a cross-country trail of death and heartbreak.”

The Times documentation of 121 potential killings out of more than 1.5 million veterans of Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq) and Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan), divided by 6 years of conflict results in a murder rate of just 1.34 incidents per 100,000 veterans per year.***

That murder rate is far lower than the murder rate for the general population, demonstrating that the experiences of military service – including having served in Iraq and Afghanistan – actually made it less likely for returning veterans to commit murder once they returned home, than the general population.

Given a census-estimated population of the United States of 300,000,000 persons in this country as of October 2006, and FBI-compiled statistics of 17,399 homicide offenders for 2006, the murder rate of the general population was 5.80 offenders per 100,000 on average – and a rate of approximately 7.67 per 100,000 for men.

Since all but one of the veterans cited by the Times who committed a killing in the U.S. was male, the comparable rate is approximately 7.67 incidents of murder per 100,000 people among the general male population, compared to just 1.34 incidents per 100,000 returning Iraq and Afghanistan veterans (of both genders).

“It’s obvious that the New York Times has an agenda of undermining the missions of our troops in the War on Terror, so much so that they are willing to resort to demonstrably false statistics to support their anti-troop bias,” said Melanie Morgan, Chairman of Move America Forward.

“The slander of our troops and veterans by the New York Times is unfortunately all too familiar. We heard this kind of nonsense about our returning veterans from Vietnam. It’s the same insult, different war.

“Perhaps the shameful staff of The New York Times has run out of war-time secrets to publish for America’s enemies to read, because now they’ve resorted to an all-out smear campaign of America’s finest men and women, who have served this country bravely and with distinction,” Morgan said.
In place of hard data to support their premise, The New York Times was instead forced to devote almost the entire portion of 6,321 word hit-piece to anecdotes of wrongdoing by individual veterans.

The New York Times even went so far as to trace back the phenomenon of murderous veterans to Greek mythology to back up their assertions of their report.

“The real mythology is the reporting by The New York Times,” Move America Forward’s Melanie Morgan concluded.
__________________

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You god damm nit wit ! I didn't write the article,but for the record" it is slime ,as is the whole damn state of New York IMO . As for something to do,I put in a productive 16 hr day,no molson. So just keep on being the insulting jackass that you are,and hope that you will be able to put in 16 productive hours a day at 73 ,assuming that you make it that long . Damn ,will you ever get a life ?Or is PCQ&A it ? Gotta go finish cutting up a tree,I shall return though, all 8 cylinders

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Temper, temper, Bob... And such awful language...

I must agree that sounds like a mighty fine day there James.

MSU

Would you be so kind as to point me to a good Benny Goodman album or list of tracks?


One that would make me a fan upon first listen?



Thank you.

Visit the Basement

Go to YOUTUBE and type in Benny Goodman and try a bunch(with video as well)

81 Newbee

Stomping At The Savoy
Jumping At The Woodside
Roll 'Em
Let's Dance
King Porter Stomp

There's literally dozens of gems while backing up legendary vocalists of the period.

Not to mention a ton of great stuff he did with vibes player Lionel Hampton and guitar innovator Charlie Christian.

Hell, as John said go to You Tube and listen, or even to LimeWire and type in Benny Goodman -- I don't think he'll mind.

Thanks guys.


I can't get past this one. I've been listening to it all night. Good stuff.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpUwx2al43U

Visit the Basement

Adam, Here is a video of the great Benny Goodman Quartet from 1937. The quartet included Goodman on clarinet, Teddy Wilson on piano, Gene Krupa on Drums, and Lionel Hampton on Vibraphone. To have a quartet in the 1930s with two black and two white performers was unheard of and Goodman took a lot of heat over it in some quarters, but he was a pioneer in race relations in this country, part of his greatness.

He was also a driven perfectionist and a hard man to work for, as many a sloppy musician found out the hard way.

Goodman had a pair of Bozak Concert Grand speakers,and Bozak Amplifiers in both of his homes. One day in around 1974 I got a call from him at Bozak. I was VP of engineering for the company, and he had a problem with one of his Bozak speakers. I was not about to mis a chance like that!

I loaded up my car with every part in the speakers, and drove to his home. He was an extremely kind and friendly gentleman, I fixed his speaker and we sat and talked about music for a long time.

Coincidentally, about a year before that meeting I had been on Cape Cod with my wife, and we had been driving home on route 6 on the Cape at night when I spotted a small sign at a restaurant that said, "Now Appearing Teddy Wilson". Realizing what it said I slammed on the breaks and turned around, explaining why to my wife.

Going into the restaurant, There was Teddy Wilson playing the piano! He was a lot older than I remembered, and about a hundred pounds heavier, but there was no mistaking his piano playing. We stayed there until they closed, and Wilson graciously played several requests from me.

I told Goodman about that night, and he got a big kick out of the story. That was the last time I saw him. He died a few years later.

Anyway, here is the Benny Goodman Quartet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHCeSCaLlZc

Shelly

Thank you for that Shelly, both the link and the personal story. Here's a favorite of mine. Enjoy!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J5Zt2Obko

Here's one more cut of the same thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ4dpNal_k&NR=1

You can spend a truly enjoyable time browsing through the links on those pages.

Here you go Adam. Great stuff here, the link has been posted many times before but a refresher is always good when class is the order of the day

That's nice of you & James but me think an apolegy would be more like it!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

I apologize, Whipper, for having misjudged and misrepresented you.
________________________________________________________________________

I hope, for the moment at least, that satisfies the dour little old lady who seems to have appointed himself a combination Ernest Angley/Emily Post here, and, lately apparently has made it his life's mission to scour the written record to dig up dirt on me.

Frankly, I can't remember having encountered a more humorless, nagging, self-righteous, control-obsessed, and self-important individual.

I suppose my best bet is simply to ignore the pest. It's sorta like having a mosquito in the bedroom at three in the morning -- you can either spend the rest of the night chasing the little bugger down or simply shut the light and allow it to do its stuff.

Buzz around to your heart's content, Dave... I've darkened the room and pulled up the covers.

Bonne nuit.

Dave you jump to conclusions too quickly. I never suggested or meant Adam in my other post about the new member Marty. Adam never left, he simply removed himself to lick his wounds temporarily, note he has made numerous posts since his 'departure'. I for one would have been amazed had he left entirely

There was a member banned here a short time ago, he was my thought regarding the new Marty. Don't feel you need to apologise for your hasty attack but asking for clarification might have been easier.

Edit:- After posting I had to re-think things. The difference between James and yourself appears to be that James does not harbour ill feelings as you seem to do Dave. Adam asked a question James and myself along with John offered some information.

I have no issue with Adam and resent you suggesting otherwise.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

I do not speak French Dave and I have no issue with you.

Sadly your chip on your shoulder is overwhelming but only you can adjust that. Have a great day Dave.

Many thanks Derek. I'm now listening to a broadcast that was aired on October 13, 1937, my 2nd birthday. I'm a long time Goodman fan. A number of years ago, before his death, I saw him lead the U of M band at Michigan Stadium. It was a special day.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

Hey, Dave.

Piss off!!!

Get lost punk you don't stand a chance. Go troll your other forums you nameless creep!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

La ikke døren treffe deg i ræva!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

Sög min kuk din jävla halvfransk hund....

BTW - don't know which translation service gave you that, but none of the words were Swedish, and what you posted was really, really bad Norwegian/Danish......

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

Couldn't resist...

personally i would find it very stressful to be in a combat area where the people trying to kill me look like any civilian walking down the street. plus I can't shoot until I know they are shooting at me.

Most of the time for allot of GI's stress doesn’t show it’s face while your in combat.

It’s only after a GI is back home and they are left with a way of life that does not fit in with the norm.

As far as only shooting when you are shot at is a reality a GI in combat can only wish for.

In a combat situation where the opposition is not identified by a uniform of opposition, then in the minds of many GI’s all that is outside of his circle “is” the opposition.

The opposition relies on and takes advantage of us “Civilized” Americans to fight with a set of rules of war that they don’t have nor will ever have.

A GI has to rely on his basic instincts of survival to protect himself and his fellow GI’s even if those instincts lead that GI to use “not in the book” offensive actions.

All GI’s want to come back home and most will do what they believe necessary to make that happen.

THIS TOPIC SURE HAS GOTTEN DUMPED ON. EACH INSULT IS JUST LIKE WATCHING KIDS FIGHT. THEN WE GET ON TO MUSIC. NOT SURE WHY WE COULD'NT OF STARTED A NEW THREAD. REALLY AS SAD AS THE INITIAL TOPIC.

Sorry about the music hijack.


We should all be used to Chewy though.

Visit the Basement

Some folks are lovers and others are fighters.We lovers prefer music over bickering.."Music soothes the savage beast."Perhaps we lovers should hijack the topic by inserting some music (no matter the subject) when the replys get nasty and personal.

81 Newbee

There are some reviews taking place as to what methods and sources were used to determine the "facts" used in the report!some results should be out in the next day or two.I find that the victems, in a couple of the cases cited ,were "gang members" surprising .(Not the veterans but the ones they shot).As I said previously,I used to read the NY Times regularly when ita motto was "All the News That's Fit to Print" Now it will print anything and slant the story while doing so !!!

81 Newbee

Great choice, James , but I suspect Bobbo is right ! For the few who may not be familiar with the piece that James suggests, here is a great performance of it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-4J5j74VPw

81 Newbee

Thanks John, I love that piece of music.