http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22406555/

Yes, that's what being said on the BBC too. It's going to cause some more trouble without a doubt. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7161590.stm

Shades of Rajiv Gandhi..his was the LTTE this one is presumably Al Queda ..... Or could it Mushy?...Suprisingly no one has mentioned the CIA!!

That's the scary thing. Al-Qaeda wanted her dead, as did Musharraf, who on the surface at least opposed them. Although I often wondered if that was lip service to keep support from the Bush administration.

He seemed to be more interested in arresting lawyers and political opponents than religious extremists.

Quelle surprise!

This is what I got from NDTV

Munizae Jehangir
Thursday, December 27, 2007 (Islamabad)
Pakistan's charismatic leader Benazir Bhutto was assassinated today as gunmen opened fire at her vehicle just before a suicide attack at an election rally addressed by her in Rawalpindi.

The attack killed more than 20 people and left several others injured.

Following Bhutto's death, a high alert has been sounded in Pakistan. President Musharraf has convened an emergency meeting of top advisors. Shops and petrol pumps have closed in many cities fearing violence.

According to preliminary reports, Benazir finished the rally at 5:30 pm and was on her way back to Ralwal. She got into the car and was soon after attacked by two people with AK 47s. A suicide bomber blew himself up next to car.

Nawaz Sharif described Benazir Bhutto's assassination as the most tragic incident in the history of Pakistan.

''I myself feel threatened,'' says Sharif, whose party temporarily suspended the electioneering in the wake of the assassination.

''Are things in control now? Had things been in control, would this have happened?'' he said, adding that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf would have to give answers.

''I also feel unprotected and the lady must also have been feeling very unprotected,'' Sharif said.

Criticising Musharraf, he said, ''If Musharraf can spend crores on his own security, could he not spend some amount on the security of Bhutto.''

Fifty-four-year-old Benazir was rushed to Rawalpindi general hospital, where she was pronounced dead nearly 40 minutes later.

''We are traumatised. People all over are crying. Everyone is saying that this Army has killed Benazir. There is going to be more bloodshed. Will the world now finally wake up? said a distraught Asma Jehangir, Chairperson, Pak Human Rights Commission.

''It is very tragic. It has shocked every Pakistani,'' said Ayaz Amir, columnist.

Prof. Bhim Singh, Chairman of the National Panthers Party and Member of National Integration Council (NIC) while condemning the brutal assassination of Benazir Bhutto Pakistan's foremost political leader and the former Prime Minister termed it as most cowardice act of the terrorists and total failure of Pakistan government.

Bhutto is survived by her husband Asif Ali Zardari and three children. Before she returned to Pakistan in October, Benazir Bhutto told NDTV that she was not afraid of the threats.

In the first reactions coming in from New Delhi, Minister of State for External Affairs Anand Sharma said, ''We are shocked and saddened by this. Benazir was a promising leader with her own stature in Pakistan. It has happened at a time when the people of Pakistan were looking up to her. We offer our condolences to her bereaved family members and friends.''

The funeral is likely to be held on Friday in Bhutto's hometown Larkana.

National and provincial assembly elections in Pakistan are due on January 8.

In October some 130 people were killed in an attack on Bhutto's cavalcade when she returned to the country.

It was one of the worst incidents of violence in a year of deteriorating security in Pakistan.

Now we will see the Islamic justice that Pakistan is famous for. Many people will die.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

Yes but in which country?

I am of the opinion that a vast number of leaders from Foreign Countries will attend her Funeral and that will be another Killing site.

I hope not but being an Indian I can only beleive the worst of Pakistan

I have an Indian friend and business partner and am aware of Indian experience with Pakistan.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

Ethan,

I am now afraid that there will be a confrontation between India and Pakistan.And hopefully the fight will not go Nuclear.

The terrorism will not stop.How could the US not sort out Al Queda unless they have a reason we do not know?

I dont see GWB doing anything to resolve the mess.

It's one hell of a scary world -- especially your part of it.

Actually my part of the world is fine.

It is Islamic Fundamentalists that are scary.

Come visit and see for your self.

I find your comment intriqueing !What would you have Bush do.??

81 Newbee

Well then I don't have to spell it out.

Remember the Indian Partition by the British the same as yours and how many millions were killed.Every family I know lost a number of members including my own.

Stupidly we appease Muslims in our country because the are part of the political vote bank for some parties.

Wish we could get rid of fundamentalists.

Fundamentalists arise because of statements like "Stupidly we appease the Muslims."

A bit more respect, and a bit less contempt and maybe, just maybe, the fundamentalists wouldn't have anything to rally against...

Wake up.

I meant what I said.

And re AlQueda, I feel that had the US concentrated on sorting those B* out instead of going to war in Iraq the problem would have been over long ago.

Visit the Basement

Yea I'm kinda confused to. GWB or anyone else will never resolve anything in that part of the world. It's going to get much worse!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

No, the rest of the world wanted (and were prepared to help) the US to concentrate on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

Note that with the change of government here we are preparing to leave Iraq, but both sides of politics here are and always have been committed to continuing involvement in Afghanistan.

So you're shifting all your forces to Afghanistan?

Visit the Basement

BS !!!!What about those in Balli and the Phillipines who blow up innocent people in Night Clubs or in Spain who blow them up in trains or in England who blow them up on Busses and in France where they gas them on subways etc. Of course in Embasseys in Africa and New York in trade centers !!!Wake up, my friend, the bastards are everywhere and are a threat to the world.They were pretty well put out of business in Afghanistan but they sre back .Whether you like Bush or not you should not let your dilike of him to dimish your sense of the danger that these terrorists are to "Non belivers". They even kill believers to accomplish their foul goals.When it comes to these terrorists, Afghanistan is just a START !!!

81 Newbee

In places like Bali and the Philippines they are a minority, and are not supported by the governments. Or are you suggesting that the USA should invade Indonesia and the Philippines, in view of the overwhelming success of the invasion of Iraq?

The fact that they are minorities is even more important.What I am saying is that not enough emphasis is apparent in much of the world as to the great danger that exists.The idea that defeating them in Afghanistan would or will solve the problem is plain STUPID.Had the world given more support in Iraq we might have already succeeded there as well.(Yes that was handled badly but politics also added to the difficulty)The UN ran like a rabbit at the first bang !! At least it caused Libya to see the light !
You know damn well that I don't believe we should invade the countries (especially France) But we certainly can supply aid and material assistance.The threat is persistant and immediate and surely deserves as much attention as the new religion of global warming !There are no carbon credits to purchase for absolution in this problem.

81 Newbee

Where did I say that defeating them in Afghanistan would solve the problem?

My point (one which is held by intelligent people and nations worldwide) is simply that military action against Al Qaeda and the Taliban was (and still is) justified, as opposed to military action in Iraq, which was based on a tissue of lies.

Well they're in Iraq now. So let's shoot 'em up.

Visit the Basement

Just to clarify: WHO is the minority? Muslims? Or extremist fundamentalists?

To be fair, I believe that the extremists are a minority everywhere, including Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan.

People are painting up this huge bogeyman. I do not intend to downplay the seriousness of the issue, but we are talking about an extreme minority of the Muslim population here... Even with the increased activity in the past decade, your chances of being killed (or even hurt) by a Muslim extremist are smaller than your chances of slipping in the bathroom and cracking your heads open...

Newbie and others - this is NOT the biggest threat facing the world. I know Fox News and the Republican party want you to believe that. The biggest threats are far more mundane, such as population aging (I would include global warming, but that would just lead to a bunch of inane posts by Jordan....). This is by far the greatest threat to our standard of living over the next 50 years.

The people threatened by the extremists live in countries inhabited by extremists. On this board that is Ethan, and possibly Vijay. I hate to agree with Spy1 (my nemesis), but he is correct in his postings regarding the government's disregard for civil liberties. THAT is the arguably the biggest threat facing you in the heartland of the US.

Yes professor :And I am more apt to die of old age as well.Tell that to those who had relatives in the twin towers.Since most people in the USA will not be in the military they are not likely to die in combat.People in Sweden are more likely to die from the cold than people in Brazil.People who commute to work daily have a much greater chance of dying in an accident than those don't.People who buy lottery tickets will more likely be hit by lightning than win the lottery.I could go on endlessly.
Sweden is not the "Great Satan" as is the USA and that is being taught to the young in the countries you named.
You say you "do not intend to downplay the seriousness of the issue"but go to great lenghts to do so !
I recall the reaction of the crowds on television when the "majority" of those whose "minority"crashed those planes into the World Trade Center cheered!'Dancing in the streets was the reaction of the "majority"
Perhaps Fox and the Republicans are on to something.
It is a growing problem and it is being ignored and poo poo ed by many.
We have an Hispanic gang war ongoing in our town and have had some stabbings and some shootings.Our police are very concerned .I will tell them not to worry since many more people are apt to die in traffic accidents or from Pneumonia.They will be very happy to know that!

81 Newbee

You did not see the "majority" dancing in the streets. You simply saw groups of people. The vast majority stayed home and were disgusted by the actions they saw on their televisions.

No, Sweden is not the great Satan. I suppose you thereby intend to paint me as someone who is not threatened by these extremists. I travel on an American passport. And I travel a LOT. Throughout Europe mainly, but also the occasional trip to the Middle East and northern Africa. Every time there is a major security alert, it is Americans traveling abroad who are warned the strongest. That's me.

I can also tell you that on my trips to the Middle East I hAve been amazed by the warmth and friendliness of these "America haters."

My point is not that this should not be taken seriously, but it is simply incorrect to assert that "the biggest threat to the world today is the terrorist fringe nuts of Islam."

Hi Professor,I have no intention of arguing about what is the "greatest" threat.There are several that deserve consideration .My concern is that it is not being treated with the attention that it deserves.Your description of the people dancing in the streets as "groups of people" is a bit of what I mean about the way it is viewed.
Yes there were "groups of people",but as I recall they were very LARGE groups in all of the Arab nations.I am sure the numbers were a surprise to others as well.Yes, most stayed home but too many "danced in the streets" which is what surprised me. Your travel experiences certainly are reassuring ,and help to temper my view of the situation.Thank you for that !
I had the impression that the true majority may have a fear of their
"fringe nuts"which led to lack of greater condemnation of their actions.I would be interested in hearing any reactions you have had by those you deal with in your travels.!

81 Newbee

Yes James,my friend,I understand fairly well how the world works,and about all the things you point out.I am concerned more about this threat because it is fostered by using religion.(I was surprised that your great post on hate language and racial slurs didn't bring wrath down upon you for violating a Christian Commandment to start it off.
Were it a Muslin reigion you would have been sentenced to "death"
AND yes, I know someone is always looking to knock off the real or "pretender'king of the hill.
I also believe that if they are ever in a position to do so they will take delight in setting off one or more "dirty bombs"anywhere in the wold but especially in the USA.I personally am not in fear for myself , my family(Including my second one here on PCQandA) but what all our world leaders (?) reaction will be .I suspect, unless a few cool heads prevail,we they will be taking turns turning parts of the globe into GLASS.many of the worlds bigtime problems were and will be started with the pretence of religious convictions.I respect your opinions and share them to some extent BUT, in my opinion, this religios movement has many legs and the martyr rewards to make it a ticking time bomb.

81 Newbee

Bhutto was as good as dead no matter what Bush did, if Osama was dead, even if Al-Qaeda was long gone.


Someone else would of done the job.

Visit the Basement

True. I am amazed Rice brokered the deal returning her to Pakistan. It does make one wonder...

I guess you can't sleep either. I'm not sure why I am wide awake right now. I didn't have much caffeine this evening.

Someone else may well have. It's not beyond possibility that Musharraf or his supporters were behind this. Al Qaeda would claim responsibility regardless.

"We will kill you like a goat' re Bemazir Bhutto

And as you all know it means Ritual Beheading

I remember reading that AL Queda statement.

According to some of the Indian newspapers.

Mushy is ( will be ) history soon.

The new Strong man is Gen.Kiani who was the head of the ISI untill recently elevated to Chief of the Armed Forces in Pak.Remember the ISI had links to the Taliban and Al Queda

Nawaz Sharif and his party are boycotting the elections in Jan.

Draw your own conclusions.Read The NYT.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/world/asia/28pakistan.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

The NYT is no longer" all the news thats fit to print" I has become a political rag like most of our papers.I used to read it daily but just check its web site once in awhile now

81 Newbee

May I mail you a response to your statement in the next few days ? If so, you may, if you wish share it with the forum

The only surprise is that she lasted this long after returning. Bhutto had little chance of living until the election.

Shelly

Where have u been..Looking for some incisive comment from you

Bhutto again.

The latest reports in India were that she wasn't shot but the blast made her bang her head against some part of her head.

I dont believe a gun man trained by Al Queda would miss from 10 feet or so.

Mushy is being fishy!!

Many of the "gunmen" used by the terrorists are duped and are probably not skilled marksmen.That is probably the reason for the BOMB!

81 Newbee

Photographs shown on TV this evening apparently show the gunman pointing his gun and also show the bomber. Also shows that Bhutto fell down after the gun was fired but before the bomb went off so the official version is definitely untrue. Eye witnesses who saw the body say that she was shot in the back of the neck or head.

Of course it's untrue. Typical attempt by the government to shed blame for not providing adequate protection. Unfortunatly the attending physician had already released the cause of death. Gunshot to the head.

The government is on its last legs. I expect a military takeover.

Shelly

It's really amazing that there was no post-mortem and that not much attempt appears to have been made to gather evidence, the whole area was hosed down in a few hours.

Probably because theren is no Sctland Yard or FBI equvivalent there

81 Newbee

The amatuer video is being released a few frames at a time.in spite of high dollar offers for it by various news operations. The entire video is scheduled to be released tomorrow !It supposedlt shows the gunman and much more.I hope the report of the release is true

81 Newbee

Ok guys.

As far as the news stories we get in India:

Benazir had a bullet wound in the "Back Of her Head"

The Gun man missed shooting her Thrice from less than 10 feet according to the Paki's.The blast knocked againd a bit of the truck that killed her.

Al Queda who were alegedly taped by the Pak ISI have categorically denied any responsibility for the attack.

My new Question.

Did Condi and GWB want her to be killed?

Absolutely not!

The Bush administration has been increasingly frustrated with President Musharraf, and wanted a Pakistani government shared with Bhutto to increase the possibility of a democratic government.

Unfortunately both Bush and Rice failed to understand just how desperate and treacherous Musharraf is. In the history of Pakistan, no President or government has ever left voluntarily, or been peacefully replaced. I still expect a military takeover. The only question is whether it will come before or after the Pakistani election.

Shelly

Well said, James.

Thank you, Love.

These are the relevant pictures from the video, they are from the Pakistani newspaper "Dawn" (online), I've enlarged it slightly.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Anyone who hasn't already seen the video can see it here http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/footage+of+bhuttos+death/1246547

This was in reply to Shelly in another Bhutto thread.

The lesson of Bhutto: A time for adults"


In which case the US Gov. could have prevailed on Mushy to allow her to import her own security staff.

An Indian paper The Telegraph says Mushy did not allow it.

Vijay

And (without specific comment on the accuracy of this particular item) we are to expect unbiased reporting on events in Pakistan from Indian newspapers?

Paul,

Our press is pretty un biased.

Logon to the website and check for yourself.

And if I remember right the articles were by foriegn correspondents.

Vijay

Really !Let us hope there is no "grassy knoll" in the area it could add so much more to your "theories

81 Newbee