Due to the bickering and in-fighting this forum is losing members, there are those who quietly leave and those who for one reason or another had to go "off air" and returned only to leave with all this carrying on in the forum. This forum was the best on the internet, I'm sorry to say it is far from that now.

See my post "Old Dude",& see "Max & Wally" even in a joke post for a reference to this, it still goes on.

Think of the regulars who were never out of the forum, all gone and as some posted, due to this problem.

If this isn't sorted the forum is a lost cause eventually.

I have no intention of starting a "war" with this post but it has to be said. Replies are welcome - in the correct manner of course, as Shelly posted a few days ago, people can & will disagree, but the secret is with the correct attitude, that is by not attacking personally a member.
-----------------------------------------

I had some words with my wife, she had some paragraphs with me.

Ianw

Yeh, I agree.
There seems to be far more vindictive posts of late. Perhaps we should have another (x-rated) Topic listing. Say, "Ranters and Ravers"
It must be difficult for the Moderators to draw a line without appearing to be censoring the postings.

Yes, the forum was very lively and very impolite prior to the last Presidential election and at the start of the Iraq war but it survived and many of us are still here.

I've been reading or contributing here for the better part of three years, and the "constant bickering and infighting driving away members to the imminent demise of the forum" has been a recurring complaint and prediction at intervals throughout that time. It also seems to me that this off-topic forum is no more our less what it was those three years ago.

There are people here who come to share a joke, wish someone a happy birthday, ask advice on digging a post hole or weeding the garden -- others to share their contagious enthusiasm for science and the arts, and others still who prefer to argue politics and social issues. The latter subjects tend at times to spawn raised voices.

But this is a public forum and therefore, necessarily, it mirrors our larger society with all of its yin and yang. It has an ever evolving life of its own. All who gather at the Holiday dinner table are not fond of one another, and some like white meat and others dark while many prefer a combination of the two.

If there indeed was a golden age of comity here, how would you propose to restore it? Rewrite the rules and ban controversy? Put any two people together in any situation and eventually one will say or do something the other doesn't like.

That is a fact of life and this forum, for better or worse, reflects that fact.

James I think you post is slightly unfair. You know perfectly well there is a minority here these days whose sole purpose in life seems to be causing dissent. You are not one of those, I enjoy reading most of our eloquent prose be it serious or nonsensical.

Ian has a very valuable point in his post. We are losing members - good members who were willing and able to contribute much. Many of those had been here for years. For a while I removed PCQ&A from being my home page because of the constant bickering. Common sense returned and this is my home page again.

There seems to be no rational answer, as Shelly has pointed out enough times moderators should not have to act as referees or judges, people should be able to act as adults. Those few dissenters seem totally unable or unwilling to modify their behaviour and the whole forum is the loser.

Of course there will be arguments, that is human nature. Today we have moved far beyond that, we have people looking to attack like it is some kind of sporting event.

Thank you to everyone who has remained and who help make this place worthwhile, especially the mods.

jazzfree,
The problem is with "personal attacks " on members, not with one member disagreeing with another in a proper polite manner.

Just like now with my reply, I'm not agreeing with you but I'm not attacking you.

However, if I posted to you e.g., that "you are a stupid fat headed idiot who hasn't a clue what your'e talking about" that is what I'm on about, that is an example and I don't mean it in any way so don't take it that I do.

"Polite" arguing is the order of the day as it were.
-----------------------------------------

I had some words with my wife, she had some paragraphs with me.

Ianw

Not to be contentious, but if someone posted to me, "you are a stupid fat headed idiot who hasn't a clue what you're talking about," and then continued with a well argued explanation of how and why he arrived at that conclusion, that would be good for me. But I doubt that someone who would preface his argument with such a juvenile rant would have anything much to say that would be worth consideration.

I came to this forum for computer advice, PC Q&A formerly pcnineoneone. A wonderful bunch of people who could never leave someone without an answer no matter how dumb the question or the questioner seemed. Although some of the cast has changed that quality remains. Some people have grown incredibly. We have one Member who used to give terrible advice that others had to jump in to correct, that person is giving lots of good useful information today and is even a moderator.
I enjoy the OT forum and visit it more then I visit the computer forum today. I wish people would stop the name calling and character assassinations but I enjoy the wide variety of opinions and even like to agree sometimes with those who's opinions I usually dislike. People move on, their life changes, some hang on some leave some come back. I feel I am among friends in a dynamic community.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

Which moderator?

Jim.

This forum is for the discussion of items of interest to its members. Sometimes those items are controversial and arouse heated feelings especially if they are political or religious, it's always been like that and has occasionally resulted in some members leaving. At certain times these issues have been more prominent everywhere, on the forum and outside it due to contemporary events as has happened of late. I for one have no intention of ceasing to make controversial posts if they seem worthy of discussion not shall I cease to join in controversial arguments of other posts if they spark my interest. There is no reason for personal remarks unrelated to the contents of the post nor for concerted attacks on particular individuals.

I have seen similar posts about this subject many times since this forum started and reports of its demise have always been proved wrong and no doubt will continue to do so.

No one is forced to visit the OT lounge. The "bickering and infighting" occurred long before there was an OT lounge.

It's simple enough to avoid any unpleasantries by going directly to the Computer forum - http://www.pcqanda.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=2 - but anyone who does will miss out on what makes PCQandA a family rather than just another "computer forum".

Jim.

Things can sometimes get heated in this forum, and as everyone knows there are some people who go through life deliberately passing wind just to see the reaction.

I have been a licensed amateur radio operator going on 50 years, and there has always been an unwritten rule that any subjects other than politics and religion were allowed. As I said it was an unwritten rule and is sometimes broken,especially by newer members of the fraternity.

We have no such rule, and I don't think I would want one in spite of its obvious wisdom. I believe in free speech, it's something in our national soul, handed down by our British brethren. This was never a forum designed for the thin skinned or the feint of heart. It was designed simply to get off topic posts out of the computer forum, where they constituted a distraction to the business at hand.

We have some less mature members (and I don't necessarily mean young, we have our share of immature older people) who have a habit personally attacking anyone they have decided they don't like, regardless of what the person posts.

My point is do not try to turn this sometimes barroom brawl into a polite tea party. That is not likely to ever happen. This forum has ben very successful in keeping contention out of our computer forum.

For those looking to the moderators to protect their tender sensibilities, That is not likely to happen either. and when our good old members join in the frey, it makes it difficult to oppose one and not the other. And as I said, we all believe in free speech.

If you expect shunning the jerks will get rid of them, forget it, there are plenty of other jerks on their side. If good people shun them, you will just find the jerks overrunning the forum, since their natural predator's will not be holding their populations in check.

In the end, people come and people go for a thousand reasons of their own. They may blame it on the arguing, but that is only one small reason people don't stay active. There is not a forum on the internet that does not have members leaving, and being replaced. Many of them are very decorous forums discussing great literature, science, and medicine. People just get tired or sick or develop other interests. that's life.

If you decide to leave we wish you well, if you decide to come back we bid you welcome. If you can't stand to be attacked, stay out of contentious threads. If you state an opinion on anything, be able to support your position, hopefully without becoming disagreeable.

Shelly

To me, every appeal for money shows exactly what people think of the forum. I don't remember any lately that haven't taken threats of closing or dire happenings because only a very very very very small minority will spend a buck, not good for a forum of over 10,000 members. That speaks volumes.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

Very few forums get full funding from the membership. Especially not in the course of a few weeks of posting a sticky thread.

Our membership is very generous, even though it may take some prodding to raise enough money to pay for very expensive hosting. We want the best quality (network, datacenter, infrastructure etc.), so it's quite a bit of money to raise.

The fact that we can get the membership to fully pay for this place speaks volumes to me about what people think of the forum. You ever tried to get enough donations to run a site? It doesn't come easy.

Grogan

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

Your error is in thinking we have over 10,000 members. That is pure fiction, always has been.the forum script records everyone who ever joined, even if that person signed in to ask one question, got their answer, and never came back. It also dutifully records every name and password anyone ever used to join. Many people have had multiple identities here, and many infrequent visitors have forgotten their membership name or password and created new ones multiple times. Some of the counted members are sadly long dead.

Essentially what you see is what you've got, and we see a few hundred more or less active members. Puts a whole new light on things doesn't it?

Shelly

No. I know there have been roughly a little over 320+ - for several years during the drives. And your posts usually say roughly 50 to 60 people send money in and the rest don't give a damn or can't. It then follows that many of those same people make a second or third donation. That's still a small fraction. I don't know many people that pay to be called a fool by others, including the moderators. That's the price of free speech.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

I was raised to tell the truth, and I do.

Shelly

But it is only your opinion, never having met the people you love to do that to. It doesn't mean it is the TRUTH.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

Moreover, those numbers include accounts that were never even used once. Someone signs up with a bogus email address, mail is undeliverable, they never get their username and password and they are one of the 12,000+ members listed since 1999.

So yes, a few hundred members at most are even exposed to the fundraisers during that time period and human nature dictates that a lesser percentage of those are going to step up to the plate. Donations are voluntary and appreciated. Hats off to those who do... we love you and we wouldn't be here in this fine datacenter without you.

I would not ever expect it to be a "slam dunk" in raising funds from donations to pay for this server. That'd be cocky, even. It didn't help that we did an annual one in the summertime either. That has since been rethought, to bi-anually.

Members come and members go, regardless of bickering in Off Topic discussions though I'm sure that we've lost some because of it. I don't even think that things are that bad at present, if anything I've seen it worse.

Grogan

I'm curious about this comment you made, Shelly..."If you state an opinion on anything, be able to support your position."

Are you saying it's not acceptable to state an opinion without having to
get into a street fight? If I state an opinion on something and someone
rips into it, that's his / her business...it becomes an opinion of their
own...I shouldn't have to answer back. If someone drives by and hurls in a hand-grenade, I have three choices : I can hurl it back at him...
I can do nothing and get blown up...or I can leave. (Probably pretty
rapidly, right?)

DavyWavy -

A dissenting opinion is not a hand grenade, Davy. It will not explode and kill you. If the dissenting opinion deserves equal or better consideration than your original proposal your ego may take a little bruising. And then you are left with two choices -- keep silent and surrender your position or present further argument. But, certainly, you are not forced to do either of those things.

When someone posts an opinion I would expect it to be something he believes, especially if its posted to oppose someone elses opinion. If someone holds an opinion it's reasonable to expect that itwas given some thought, and not just something said to stir up desention. So why would it be a hardship if the opinion was challanged and the person challanging it had an expectation for the opinion to be supported by facts? Of course if facts were not able to be provided, they could always resort to trading insults. But that's what we were talking about...

Shelly

As mainly an observer and a minimal participant in the "discussions", I believe I can sum up the cause:

....


I changed my mind...I copied my text to WordPad for later use...maybe.

Frankly, I would hijack this thread if I stated the obvious. So I will tolerate things for another eighteen months and see what happens.

Really, my thoughts would be tantamout to a thread hijack. And it would give fuel to at least one U.S. member to restate what he says in other threads. Best to keep quiet for now.

You make a good point about Lincoln's "fool."

Hi All, From where I'm sitting, we see 'em come, we see 'em go, some come along and plaster the Off Topic Lounge with verbal diahrea, until they realise they're getting nowhere, then they disappear like the morning dew.Sadly the side effect can be the loss of good people, but hey remember the old saying about Sticks and Stones? I,m not going anywhere soon!
Cheers,
Richard.
Computer Specs here:- http://www.yachtcha.com/Specs.html
Website http://www.yachtcha.com
Its nice to be important, but its important to be nice

http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/getDynamicImage.do?memberName=oldgit&mnOn=true&stat=1&imageNum=3&rankOn=false&projectsOn=false&special=true" frameborder="0" name="di" scrolling="no" width="125px" height="176px">

This isn't a reply to anyone in particular.

the infighting wasn't prevalent a few years ago, it was a good forum.

anyway, a lot of members have left, remember this, this forum exists on members giving money for it to survive, if enough members leave then there will not be enough cash to keep it going and it will be goodbye forum. That is fact, there won't be any 2nd chances.

As I posted earlier it's all in the manner / attitude of the argumensts posted that is the problem, not the arguing.
Argue all you want, but keep it well mannered.

Keep that in mind please.

-----------------------------------------
I had some words with my wife, she had some paragraphs with me.

Ianw

With all respect, you have only been here for about two years. You have no knowledge of what the norm has been in the past for contentiousness. You were not here for the debates on the Iraq war, or the last presidential election, and those were only four years ago.

Shelly

Actually he's been with us for quite a while, he just changed his name. Ian used to go by the name faceache.

I do not believe that things are any different than before though.

Grogan

I suspect many of our forum members would benefit from learning how to make a logically valid and sound argument; In particular, learning that Ad hominem arguments are logically flawed.

Agreed! Now only if only the presidential candidates would take that advice!

Visit the Basement

Would I be attacking you, or you consider me offensive if I agreed with your proposal, and further recommend all members be required to verify a completed course in public debate, and be willing to disclose his or her own level of sensitivity before being allowed to continue their membership?

Visit the Basement

When I was going through the process of bringing my wife to the USA, I used to belong to a forum dedicated to helping people going through the visa and immigration process, and adjusting to the cultural differences, and it was very helpful in that regard. Since people were also wanting to post off topic subjects, there were separate sections dedicated to various forms of OT discussion, and naturally, the discussions would veer into religion, and politics and would sometimes get very nasty in nature. The moderators then banned all political discussions, and then they were banning this and that, and eventually, the forum basically died, and I don't know what all the reasons for it were. But the web lost a very valuable resource for information about bringing loved ones to the US from abroad. So, I don't think that the key is to ban or restrict discussions, even controversial ones. I think that the key is to become a master-debater and practice at it until you go blind, or, at least need glasses. A thicker skin helps as well.

Regards.

I'm not touching that one.

I think that the key is to become a master-debater and practice at it until you go blind, or, at least need glasses. A thicker skin helps as well.

Grogan

I'm not replying to anyone in particular.

It appears that I have been misunderstood in my posts in this topic.
I have nothing at all against people arguing with each other, that does no harm to anyone.

What I am on about is when replies get personal and trade insults at each other, in fact, it has happened that a poster stated he was leaving because of it - and he was one of those trading insults. One instance occurred a few months ago.

There was none of this up to a year ago.

Hopefully I've cleared this up.

-----------------------------------------
I had some words with my wife, she had some paragraphs with me.

Ianw

Shelly

Filth:

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

?

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

At times I have a twisted sense of humor -- this time, apparently, it was too cryptic an attempt at being funny and didn't work.

Sorry.

I didn't see the pointy headed people in the background

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

I didn't see them at first either. That's a disgusting picture and not funny.

It said Filth , didn't say it was funny !

Jane

Please read post 51.

At times I have a twisted sense of humor -- this time, apparently, it was too cryptic an attempt at being funny and didn't work.

Try not to be so obtuse.

The picture isn't funny. The context that it was posted in is. While not side-splittingly funny, it is mildly humorous.

Jim.

OK, maybe I took it the wrong way. As you well know, James and I don't get along. What I said was a dig at him and I apologize.

OK.

Jim.

Actually I think it is funny, in a different way. Just look at those pathetic assclowns in the picture. Nazi hair cuts and uniforms, mock KKK robes in the next row etc. What a costume party that is. Is that an American flag on the shoulder of the halloween costume at rear left?

Theatrical bullshit... a bunch of wannabe losers. If they really had their way, they'd be sorry. They don't look like the superior race to me and under their ideology would themselves be culled. I'd be surprised if that group in the picture was anything to worry about. (and can that geezer in the middle even swing a rifle butt?)

So James, it wasn't a total loss. At least you amused somebody

Grogan

And as their mentor, Uncle Adolph, was revealed doing in so many of his portraits, they are all protecting the shrunken family jewels. It must be part of their ritual.

MSU

The photo shows the KKK, and some Neo-Nazis.

Shelly

I didn't like that picture, so I’m going to throw this dam computer in the trash and never visit this forum again.

Good Bye.

Jim.

We should be so lucky.

Al may have been gentlemanly with you, but his attacks on members of my family, of whom he knew nothing, were downright disgusting.

I don't recall that incident. Al is a smart guy, but he had some strange ideas at times. I always enjoyed debating with him.

Shelly

I miss Al, Myk too. They kept this forum, well conservative.

Visit the Basement

No they didn't. They reflected conservative views, in Myk's case libertarian views, but the forum itself has never been either liberal or conservative. the problem now is there is a lack of debating capability for the conservative position. those with that leaning seem to rely on copy and pasting other peoples words, that is not debating it's reporting, or just attacking our more liberal members any chance they get. That works in a barroom but it does not win arguments. I hope Myk is alright, he was having some health problems.

Shelly

I feel as if that was a slam against me.

Visit the Basement

A slam dunk. Grow some skin you'll be needing it in the long run!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

well I felt it was a slam all except the cut and pasting part. I'm not a C&Per.

There is no need to debate the conservative position. There's no debate to the fact we're always right! Get it? Always right? Liberals love to debate, argue, chastise, thorw those personal attacks, etc... at conservatives out of frustration for a flawed position.

Visit the Basement

This is my second family !!!!Sometimes I feel like the Dad and most times like one of the children.Somehow today, I feel like the Mom and want to lecture.
A few years back I picked up a old computer at a Garage sale for a few bucks.(Win 98 2nd ed.)and wanted to add a CDRW drive.I started looking for imformation on how to install and if it was feasable.I went to several sites and in the process found one that appealed to me , called PC911 with a "Crazy German" heading it up and listed a bunch of what appeared to me some very imformative moderators .I joined and posted the question and at first there was a debate as to the idea of putting one in the old "junker" and the discussion led to the concensus was do it and it will work !Shelly and Grogan were especially helpful and encourageing me to try.It worked as they said it would and is still working in one of my Grandkids machines.
In those days there was no separation for Off Topic posts so one had to mark the post as "Off Topic"Of course in looking for the replys to my computer questions I read many of the off topic posts and discovered a lot of interesting AND controversal comments and people.I found myself learning more about computers than I ever thought possible and about the world around me as well.As time went on there were times when discussions were as hot and heavy as today.It varied by subject and by who was posting it.There was a regular HAL1000 who delighted in posting subjects that would stir the pot.He disliked the use of smilies so I always used several in my replies to him.I also adopted the clown at the end of my posts to remind me not to be too sure of the reaction it would cause.(Life and death are the only thing we are assured of,hence my clown on the rest of my posts)
There was another part of PC911 where you could allocate a part of your HD to be used by a project the test compounds etc to help find a possible cure for cancer and small pox.After visiting the forum I signed up and wondered why everyone did not .As membership slowly grew I decided to get more folks to visit the Forum and maybe when they saw it as I did would join.SO I Posted and marked it "OFF Topic "Maybe the forum is X Rated" or words to that effect .Within a week the forum erupted.I was devastated.Old Dude,who was very active in those days took exception to my post and others defended it saying that it was clearly marked "off topic".I will make it brief, but all hell broke loose in the forum and resentments that had been festering popped up and the PC911 started to fall apart.I was assured that the problem had been there and it would have happened sooner or later(I had met and had lunch wit the "Crazy German"some time before and I felt I had somehow messed up things for him.Some of those who had been especially helpful to me left and PC 911 was OVER.I was recruited for other places by some who had joined elsewher and no matter where I looked nothing matched the flavor and the helpfulness of PC911.It was wth extreme joy that some of the original members and moderators were able to start PCQandA.One of the major changes was to have a separate forum for OFF TOPIC posts.
This is by far the best forum of its kind on the web !!!It has some of the most patient and capable Computer HELPERS in the world.
It also has the most knowledgeable and highly opinionated OFF TOPIC posters as well.I have suggested this before as have others.If you do not like caustic comments don't open the off topic posts.I read the questions in the Computer Forum every day and then turn to the OFF Topic forum to raise my blood pressure a few points to be sure I am still alive.Lets not get so angry that we blow this site up .I have few things in life that I enjoy more than this my "SECOND FAMILY" .COO IT PLEASE!

81 Newbee

Here Here!!!! Thanks for your post. I too have switched to just raising my blood pressure by visiting the OT forum momentarily. I don't go for the obvious bait anymore.

Nice post, thanks for the walk back in PC911 time.

Visit the Basement

Let me assure you again John that you had no blame in the eventual demise of PC911.

Alex had come to a point which required him to make some important career choices, and he simply could no longer afford the many hours he had to devote to maintaining PC911. There was considerable discussion about this in our private staff forum.

We all learned a lot from Alex about the right way to run a forum, and we used that knowledge to keep the spirit of PC911 alive in our PCQandA forum. PCQandA was created because we came to the realization that there was nothing else on the internet that was as satisfying for us.

Shelly

The only difference between your crowd and those you disparage is the source of the cut and pastes.

(paraphrased)
Belief arises out of a complex interaction of personality, experience, and culture. It is wrong to think that by applying certain logical tools we will all arrive at similar beliefs. However, opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices.

'Ignorant' is a word used quite often on this forum to attack another who does not share the opinion of the attacker. Personally, I continually reassess my 'opinions' based on additional information as it becomes available.

Are you dense or are you just 'trolling', a practice you repeatedly decry? There is no reason for one to argue, prove, or change their opinion. An opinion is neither 'right' nor 'wrong', it is simply a position one has arrived at for whatever reason or no reason at all. You can agree, diagree, partially agree or partially disagree with another's opinion or simply have no opinion. Matters not.

I thought Jim asked a very reasonable question, based upon your professing an open mind. Surely in your life you must have held at least one opinion you had to give up in the face of new evidence. Now you try to weasel out of answering him. Unlike Jim, I would settle for just one good example.

I have had to change my opinion on a multitude of things in the face of facts that proved me wrong, many right here on this forum. I'm amazed you can't come up with even one. The only possible reason I can fathom is that your opinions, like our President's, are based not on facts at all, but on feelings and wishful thinking.

Shelly

Visit the Basement

Visit the Basement