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JohnnyRebFri Mar-23-07 11:41 AM
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"UK sailors captured at gunpoint"


  

          

15 British sailors captured by Iranian forces.



BBC News

  

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npmclFri Mar-23-07 12:47 PM
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#1. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)
Fri Mar-23-07 12:50 PM by npmcl

  

          

Worrying in view of this

Quote:
IRAN is threatening to retaliate in Europe for what it claims is a daring undercover operation by western intelligence services to kidnap senior officers in its Revolutionary Guard.

According to Iranian sources, several officers have been abducted in the past three months and the United States has drawn up a list of other targets to be seized with the aim of destabilising Tehran’s military command.

In an article in Subhi Sadek, the Revolutionary Guard’s weekly paper, Reza Faker, a writer believed to have close links to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, warned that Iran would strike back.........

..........Military analysts believe that Iranian threats of retaliation are credible. Tehran is notorious for settling scores. When the Israelis killed Abbas Mussawi, Hezbollah’s general secretary, in 1992 the Quds Force blew up the Israeli embassy in Argentina in revenge.

Despite the Iranian threat to retaliate in Europe, Iraq is seen by some analysts as a more likely place in which to attempt abductions.

“In Iraq, the Quds Force can easily get hold of American — and British — officers,” said a Jordanian intelligence source.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1530527.ece

  

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ShellyFri Mar-23-07 12:58 PM
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#2. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


  

          

Here's the Associated Press article on it.

Iran Nabs British Sailors in Iraq Waters

Mar 23, 9:17 AM (ET)

By ROBERT BARR

LONDON (AP) - Iranian naval vessels seized 15 British sailors who had boarded a ship suspected of smuggling cars in the Persian Gulf off the Iraqi coast on Friday, officials said.

The British government demanded "the immediate and safe return of our people and equipment."

The British Navy personnel were "engaged in routine boarding operations of merchant shipping in Iraqi territorial waters," and had completed a ship inspection when they were accosted by Iranian vessels, Britain's Defense Ministry said.

"We are urgently pursuing this matter with the Iranian authorities at the highest level and ... the Iranian ambassador has been summoned to the Foreign Office," the ministry said.

The seizure comes at a time of rising tensions between Iran and the West, which accuses the Islamic republic of violating a U.N. calls for it to halt uranium enrichment and open its nuclear program for inspection. It also comes amid U.S. accusations that Iran is funding and arming Shiite militias in Iraq, worsening sectarian tensions there.

The United States, Britain's chief ally, has built up its naval forces in the Gulf in a show of strength directed at Iran. Two American carriers, including the USS John C. Stennis - backed by a strike group with more than 6,500 sailors and Marines and with additional minesweeping ships - arrived in the region in recent months, ratcheting up tensions with Iran.

A Pentagon official said the Britons were in two inflatable boats from the frigate H.M.S. Cornwall during a routine smuggling investigation, said the official, who spoke on condition on anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the incident.

He said the confrontation happened as the British contingent was traveling along the boundary of territorial waters between Iran and Iraq. They were detained by the Revolutionary Guard's navy after inspecting a merchant ship believed to be smuggling cars, he said.

A fisherman who said he was with a group of Iraqis from the southern city of Basra fishing in Iraqi waters in the northern area of the Gulf said he saw the Iranian seizure. The fisherman declined to be identified because of security concerns.

"Two boats, each with a crew of six to eight multinational forces, were searching Iraqi and Iranian boats Friday morning in Ras al-Beesha area in the northern entrance of the Arab Gulf, but big Iranian boats came and took the two boats with their crews to the Iranian waters."

In June 2004, six British marines and two sailors were seized by Iran in the Shatt al-Arab between Iran and Iraq. They were presented blindfolded on Iranian television and admitted entering Iranian waters illegally, then released unharmed after three days.

Shelly

  

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EllergreenSat Mar-24-07 11:31 AM
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#7. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 2)


  

          

"In June 2004, six British marines and two sailors were seized by Iran in the Shatt al-Arab between Iran and Iraq. They were presented blindfolded on Iranian television and admitted entering Iranian waters illegally, then released unharmed after three days"

And then, our ineffective politician (Defence Secretary Geoff (no-balls) Hoon) said
(a) "We do not expect a recurrence of this type of incident", and demanded the return of the boats and equipment"
(b) One year later the three boats, weapons, ammunition radios global positioning sytems were put on display in the Tehran Military Museum and have still not been returned!!!!
Wouldn't have happened in Maggie Thatcher's Day!

  

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npmclSat Mar-24-07 11:43 AM
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#8. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ellergreen (Reply # 7)


  

          

So what would she have done?

  

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EllergreenSat Mar-24-07 11:51 AM
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#9. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 8)


  

          

Not having a crystal ball it's hard to say, but going on past performance, she would have done a hell of a lot more than the present incumbants!

  

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Coronation BabySat Mar-24-07 02:39 PM
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#10. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ellergreen (Reply # 9)


          

Latest news here in uk is reporting that our personnel have been taken to Teheran and have "confessed" to invading Iran's territory.
We might not see such an early release as the last occasion.

Old But Not Grown UP

  

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npmclSat Mar-24-07 04:50 PM
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#11. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Coronation Baby (Reply # 10)
Sat Mar-24-07 05:03 PM by npmcl

  

          

The sailors who were taken before also "confessed", I don't think that that means much. I think that I'd probably "confess" if it got me released, I could retract later.

Incidentally I heard an Iraqi government official speaking on the radio this morning say that although Iraq firmly believes that the area is Iraqi, Iran equally believes that it is Iranian and this area has been in dispute for years. So in his opinion both sides could be right in their own eyes. Obviously Iran could also have other reasons.

  

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JordanSat Mar-24-07 08:35 PM
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#13. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Coronation Baby (Reply # 10)


  

          

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/PAR447455.htm

  

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ShellySat Mar-24-07 08:55 PM
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#14. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Coronation Baby (Reply # 10)


  

          

It's a phony confession, as was the one in 2004. Just a ploy to gain their release, and allow Iran to save face. Navel ships know exactly where the are and where their people are. They don't rely on a sextant readings few times a day, they use Global positioning Satellites (GPS), and know their position within 3 meters on the Earths surface at all times.

Shelly

  

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Paul DSat Mar-24-07 09:26 PM
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#15. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ellergreen (Reply # 9)


  

          


Iraq isn't the Falkland Islands.



Paul D

  

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BobGuySat Mar-24-07 11:54 PM
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#16. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ellergreen (Reply # 7)


          

Are you still embracing a fantasy of victory in the middle east?

  

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BobGuyFri Mar-23-07 05:57 PM
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#3. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

It has begun.

  

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ShellyFri Mar-23-07 06:37 PM
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#4. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 3)
Fri Mar-23-07 06:38 PM by Shelly

  

          

Began a long time ago. This is the second time Iran illegaly grabed some Brits. The last time they were released in 3 days.

Shelly

  

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BobGuyFri Mar-23-07 08:41 PM
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#5. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 4)


          

At that time, the Iranian presidency was held by Mohammad Khatami, considered a moderate and more accommodating to the West.

The current administration in Tehran is led by Ahmadinejad whose confrontational stance has been the bane of Washington.

We will have to wait and see how long it takes this time to return the British sailors.

However this would be a good opportunity for Bush to increase the rhetoric for an invasion of Iran, except that we don't have the troops for that nonsense. That and the world really can't afford $300.00/barrel for crude oil after Iran shuts down the straits of Hormuz and stops 30% of the worlds oil supply from getting out of the Persian Gulf to the rest of the world.

I caught on the news that crude oil went back up to $60.00/barrel today, I just didn't hear what the price of crude oil was yesterday.

  

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ShellySat Mar-24-07 01:36 AM
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#6. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 5)


  

          

Oil ends atop $62, up 4.5% on week after Iran seizes U.K. sailors

Crude end higher for the week; reformulated gas is Friday's biggest gainer

By Myra P. Saefong, MarketWatch
Last Update: 3:16 PM ET Mar 23, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Crude-oil futures climbed past $62 a barrel Friday to close at their highest level in two weeks as Iran's seizure of 15 British naval personnel off the coast of Iraq triggered concerns over disruptions to crude production in the oil-rich Middle East.

The May contract for crude futures finished 4.5% higher for the week.

The U.K. boarding party, operating from HMS Cornwall, had completed a successful inspection of a merchant ship when they and their two boats were surrounded and escorted by Iranian vessels into Iranian territorial waters, the British government said.

"This is an example of how fragile the futures market for oil is," said Charles Perry, chairman of energy-consulting firm Perry Management.

Crude for May delivery rose 59 cents to close at $62.28 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

It climbed as high as $62.60 during the regular session, its strongest level since March 9. A week ago, the contract closed at $59.58.

Petroleum-product futures finished the day on a mixed note, with April reformulated gasoline futures making the biggest move, up 2.1%, or 4.08 cents, to close at $1.9983 a gallon.

It briefly rose past the $2 mark at its peak, a level not seen since early September. The contract gained 4.8% for the week.

April heating oil closed 0.69 cent lower at $1.7111 a gallon -- up 1.3% from last Friday's close.

Iran's capture of the British sailors had help to lift crude futures from the regular session's lows of $61.85 and a low of $61.25 in the electronic trading session.

And it's not the first time this has happened. In June of 2004, Iran seized three U.K. navy vessels and eight crew members after they allegedly strayed into Iranian waters, according to BBC News. During their captivity, the servicemen were forced to parade blindfold and apologize on Iranian TV before their release was agreed.

'Potentially explosive'

The latest incident "and subsequent mishandling, is just the sort of thing that fuels concerns about a global conflagration over oil," John Kilduff, an analyst at Fimat USA, said in a note to clients. "It's premature to judge the seriousness of this incident, but it is potentially explosive."

Emanuel Balarie, an analyst at Wisdom Financial, expected to see a much larger move in oil prices based on the news.

"This shows you the level of complacency that has occurred over the last several months regarding tensions in the Middle East," he said in e-mailed comments. "One thing is clear, however -- whether it's the seizure of British soldiers or Iran simply refusing to comply with deadlines, it is evidently clear that Iran is marching to its own drummer."

Perry said he believes the actual threat to oil production is "minimal."

Traders are concerned that the incident "may lead to a confrontation between Iran and the West, and Iran will cut off their oil," he said.

But "that is not going to happen -- Iran has to have the oil income," he said. "I think the Iranian nuclear activities are a far bigger threat."

Overall, Balarie said he believes "the oil market has failed to correctly take into account the continued tensions in oil-producing countries," with some of those countries dropping out of the headlines for a couple of weeks.

"As we saw today with the situation in Iran and Nigeria, problems can arise at any given moment," he said. And "if this issue with the British soldiers is not resolved immediately, I would expect oil prices to continue escalating higher."

Indeed, there are still a number of bullish factors that should support crude prices -- apart from Friday's tensions in the Persian Gulf, according to Michael Henzi, an analyst at Sterne Agee. These include Iran's insistence that it will press ahead with its nuclear program, violence in Nigeria that could escalate as the national elections approach, and declining foreign investment in Venezuela that will result in lower production.

Lower crude prices have increased the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries' production-quota compliance, said Henzi, in a research note.

The Energy Department said it will start refilling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve at 350,000 to 700,000 barrels per week. And "the International Energy Agency," according to Henzi, "said world oil and product stocks could see the largest decline in more than 10 years due to curbed OPEC supplies."

Adding support to oil prices Friday, the United Nations Security Council is expected to meet Saturday to hammer out a final agreement on the next phase of sanctions against Iran for refusing to cease uranium enrichment, the BBC reported.

The council's five permanent members are pushing for consensus on a draft resolution but have so far failed to achieve consensus.

Meanwhile, oil traders continued to digest data from the U.S. Energy Department released Wednesday, which showed a second-weekly rise in crude inventories, but also revealed that supplies of distillates and motor gasoline have been falling for several weeks. See full story

Shelly

  

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Larry SSat Mar-24-07 05:46 PM
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#12. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 4)


          

Probably wont be that quick of a release this time with that nut case that is running Iran now. He will hold on to them for quite a while to antagonize the Brits and Americans.

  

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Coronation BabyTue Mar-27-07 03:59 PM
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#17. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

Well the saga goes on. Our government insists our troops were in Iraqi waters and there is supporting evidence.Anyhow if Iran is so much in need of a nuclear weapon they can have one of ours with free delivery by extremely rapid air freight. Just a thought.

Old But Not Grown UP

  

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npmclTue Mar-27-07 07:30 PM
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#18. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Coronation Baby (Reply # 17)


  

          

Quote:
Anyhow if Iran is so much in need of a nuclear weapon they can have one of ours with free delivery by extremely rapid air freight. Just a thought.
How will that help the sailors in Iran?

  

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BobGuyWed Mar-28-07 06:43 AM
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#19. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

The plot thickens...

British consider consequences of attack on Iran

Blair government, military will examine possible role, if any, in 'inevitable' US-led attack.

Quote:
British media are reporting that Tony Blair's government is meeting in secret Monday with military chiefs to discuss an attack against Iran.

The Daily Telegraph reports that the meeting will examine the consequences of an American-led attack, which is "inevitable" if Iran does not comply with United Nations demands to freeze their uranium enrichment program.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0403/dailyUpdate.html

  

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npmclWed Mar-28-07 12:21 PM
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#20. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 19)
Wed Mar-28-07 12:23 PM by npmcl

  

          

There have actually been very few calls for the use of force to rescue the sailors, bear in mind that the Daily Telegraph is a Conservative anti-government newspaper which enjoys "stirring".

Quote:
Force is out. It is seen as counterproductive
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6499781.stm

  

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ShellyWed Mar-28-07 02:28 PM
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#21. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 19)


  

          

An American attack on Iran is certainly not inevitable.

Shelly

  

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npmclWed Mar-28-07 03:54 PM
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#22. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 21)


  

          

I saw an interview with an American diplomat on TV yesterday in which he said that they staying out of this and are leaving it to the British government as they thought that the less the Americans were involved the better for all concerned. I'm paraphrasing his words as I can't remember them exactly but that was what he meant.

  

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ShellyWed Mar-28-07 06:04 PM
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#23. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 22)


  

          

Nothing the US could say to Iran at this point, other than bang bang you're dead, would help the situation of the people Iran kidnapped in what would have once been characterized as an act of piracy.

Shelly

  

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JohnnyRebWed Mar-28-07 07:02 PM
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#24. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 23)


  

          

Well... not piracy....

The aggressors had the sanction of the Iranian state. That would negate the requirements for true piracy. Maybe privateering, or just a simple act of aggression.

  

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ShellyWed Mar-28-07 07:11 PM
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#25. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 24)


  

          

Historically, much piracy was state sanctioned.

Shelly

  

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JohnnyRebWed Mar-28-07 07:24 PM
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#26. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 25)


  

          

In practice, but technically piracy is an act that can only be committed by private individuals acting privately. Military forces acting under orders can never be considered pirates, nor can private individuals acting with the blessing of their nation.

But the actions and results are the same, regardless of the semantics. I just love semantics...

  

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BobGuyThu Mar-29-07 09:23 PM
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#27. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

Not getting any better, is it?

Quote:
"The release of a female British soldier has been suspended," Mehr news said in a report that quoted military commander Alireza Afshar. "The wrong behavior of those who live in London caused the suspension."


I guess any excuse will do.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070329/ts_nm/iran_britain_dc_24

  

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npmclSat Mar-31-07 07:26 AM
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#28. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


  

          

Quote:
US officials have ruled out a deal to exchange 15 Royal Navy personnel captured in the Gulf for five Iranians seized by American forces in Iraq.

State department spokesman Sean McCormack rejected suggestions that a swap could be made.

The five, believed to be members of Iran's Revolutionary Guard, were seized in January in the Iraqi city of Irbil.

Britain denies Iran's claims that the UK crew were in its waters when seized on 23 March.

The five Iranians were captured in a raid along with equipment which the Americans say shows clear Iranian links to networks supplying Iraqi insurgents with technology and weapons.

US officials have condemned Iran's actions and publicly supported the UK.

But the BBC's James Coomerasamy said they are otherwise seeking to stay out of the dispute.

A Pentagon spokesman said the stand-off was a "delicate situation at a critical stage"..........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6512927.stm

  

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basa48Sat Mar-31-07 08:25 AM
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#29. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 28)


          

And raising the stakes even more:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1258488,00.html

Tone
Tone

  

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BobGuySat Mar-31-07 04:14 PM
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#30. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to basa48 (Reply # 29)


          

That skynews site revs up my cpu to 99% and makes scrolling the page tedious.

Hence I didn't read the whole article.

  

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KJTSat Mar-31-07 04:34 PM
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#31. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 30)


  

          

That's interesting. I'm on dialup and it only takes about 35 seconds to load the article, with no noticeable spike in CPU usage. Maybe it's quicker for me because I block ads and ad sites, and disable active X and scripting. Or not.

Jim.

  

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GroganSat Mar-31-07 09:05 PM
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#32. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 30)


  

          

>That skynews site revs up my cpu to 99% and makes scrolling
>the page tedious.
>
>Hence I didn't read the whole article.

Bob, it's probably the rendering of true type fonts with XFT... I have the same problem with similarly constructed sites with a lot of fonts and sidebar crap. On that one, it's that scrolling news ticker thing that's doing it. It happens with the nv driver for me, but not when I'm using the nvidia driver.

Grogan

  

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BobGuySun Apr-01-07 05:00 AM
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#33. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

CAMP DAVID, Md. - President Bush on Saturday said Iran's capture of 15 British sailors and marines was "inexcusable" and called for Iran to "give back the hostages" immediately and unconditionally.

"It's inexcusable behavior," Bush said at the Camp David presidential retreat, where he was meeting with the president of Brazil. "Iran must give back the hostages. They're innocent. They did nothing wrong."

The link

Stay tuned, same bat time, same bat channel.


It's Winter now.
Over all the rooftops is calm and quiet,
you can hardly hear a thing
except for the ticking,
the ticking,
the ticking

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 07:41 AM
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#34. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 33)
Sun Apr-01-07 09:26 AM by npmcl

  

          

Fools rush in......... It had been previously stated by the American administration that they would keep out of this as their intervention would be unhelpful. Only yesterday I read that Bush's right-wing advisors were calling on him to make a statement so that the pressure could be increased on Iran for their own reasons. We do NOT want this incident to be used as part of an excuse by America to threaten to attack Iran! Obviously we do appreciate American support behind the scenes.

  

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Dave101Sun Apr-01-07 02:02 PM
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#35. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 34)


  

          

Iran's asking for it & when they get it I won't have any sympathy for them!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 03:45 PM
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#38. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Dave101 (Reply # 35)


  

          

We are more interested in getting our people back safely than starting another war. It might be a good idea to win the war in Iraq before you think about starting another one.

  

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Ed W.Sun Apr-01-07 04:05 PM
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#40. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 38)


          

Surely you don't think the US is going to start a War with Iran any time soon. We love to have a show of force like last fall off of Korea. I was lucky enough to find one of my Uncles diaries still survived from his part in Teddy Roosevelt's day. The Great White Fleet sailed around the World in 1908/9, which was a first for the US. Prior to that it was the Brits that rattled their sabers.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 08:15 PM
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#41. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 40)


  

          

I was replying to the impression created by Dave's post.

  

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Ed W.Sun Apr-01-07 03:10 PM
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#36. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 34)


          

And on the left wing, if the British Navy and Marines had not attacked Iran we would not have this situation.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 03:32 PM
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#37. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 36)


  

          

The British Navy and Marines did not attack Iran.

  

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Ed W.Sun Apr-01-07 03:54 PM
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#39. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 37)


          

You know that, I know that, but the Iranians have a different version of the story. Sometimes you need to inject a little humor into a serious situation.

There is no way the US can sit back and not make comments on it. This is just what the Iranians have been planning to do for some time. They most likely would not do it to a US unit, but can drive a wedge between the US and the UK. This is their ideal situation. Look at the demonstrations today in Iran at the UK Embassy. Then backtrack to 1979 and the loss of our ally the Shaw. They will act when it is the correct time in their eyes and the eyes of their people.

They could care less for World opinion.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 08:30 PM
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#42. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 39)


  

          

It was the American State Department who said that they would refrain from comments because it wouldn't help the situation.

  

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ablibSun Apr-01-07 10:55 PM
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#43. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 42)


  

          

So at what point would you suggest Britian go to war with Iran? (With the USA's assistance of course)

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclSun Apr-01-07 11:09 PM
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#44. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 43)


  

          

It's the USA who is apparently edging in that direction, if they do it would be about the stupidest thing that your government has done yet and that's saying something.

  

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ablibSun Apr-01-07 11:31 PM
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#45. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 44)


  

          

So at what point would you suggest Britian go to war with Iran?

Visit the Basement

  

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giseudaSun Apr-01-07 11:45 PM
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#46. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 45)


  

          

Easy answer. When Iran nukes them.

  

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ablibSun Apr-01-07 11:56 PM
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#47. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 46)


  

          

I'm trying to be serious.

Visit the Basement

  

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giseudaMon Apr-02-07 12:51 AM
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#48. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 47)
Mon Apr-02-07 12:56 AM by giseuda

  

          

I'm dead serious, no joke. Somebody needs to wake up soon.

  

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ShellyMon Apr-02-07 02:44 AM
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#49. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 48)


  

          

And that somebody is you.

Shelly

  

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giseudaMon Apr-02-07 03:05 AM
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#50. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 49)


  

          

We'll keep playing around with Iran and then we will all find out who wakes up.

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 04:40 AM
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#51. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 50)


  

          

I can somewhat agree where you're coming from. I think that had we not taken Saddam out of power eventually he would wage war on the world. he wasn't letting UN weapons inspectors in, what were we supposed to think?

So we put all of our resources into Iraq to stop Saddam. Saddam's dead and gone, and we're still there.

What a perfect time for the derelict nations like North Korea and Iran to get freaky with their nuclear program. They know that while we're in Iraq it is highly unlikely we're going to do much to them because our volunteer army is stretched thin as it is.

So in the meantime we continue our diplomatic talks that go nowhere. What else can we do? We can't do anything with Iran or North Korea until we get out of Iraq.

But the general populace of the USA (the ones against the war) are pretty much too stupid to realize this is what we have to do to stop problems BEFORE they begin. Of course being proactive isn't generally a part of our day to day thinking.

If we ignore conflict and world issues and do nothing like everyone in the USA seems to want to do these days, we're going to wake up and find that the news is being broadcast from California, because the eastern seaboard has been wiped out.

So liberals! Let's pull out of Iraq, let North Korea and Iran do what they want and let our enemies come to us! Let's bring the war here.

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebMon Apr-02-07 07:02 AM
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#52. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 51)


  

          

Quote:
I think that had we not taken Saddam out of power eventually he would wage war on the world.


Then you're not thinking hard enough! He would never have been more than a local threat. Saddam wasn't driven by religious ferver. He was not a "madman." He was driven by power. Apart from meddling a bit with his neighbors he would never have tried to project power outside his backyard.

Why? Simple - he knew that would get him shut down. He knew that that was the quickest way to lose the power he loved so much. His refusal to let arms inspectors in was likely not because he had WMDs, but because he needed to do some posturing to show his own people that he was strong enough to stand up to the world. He had a lot of "face" to regain after the first Gulf War, and he never truly expected Bush to invade.

He was playing brinksmanship games, and lost. But he would never have been a true threat.

Iran may be a threat, given the climate of religious ferver that has been present (more or less) since the Islamic Revolution. But we need somebody other than Bush to try to defuse that issue. Look at the wonderful job Bush has done with Iraq...

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 09:30 AM
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#58. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 52)


  

          

You have a logical opinion about Saddam and you're right about Bush not being the one to diffuse Iran.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeMon Apr-02-07 08:48 AM
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#54. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 51)


  

          

Quote:
I can somewhat agree where you're coming from.


Not at all surprising, since you are both coming from the same place.

It never ceases to amaze me the convoluted, simplistic, half-uninformed, Fox Noise spoonfed pap that some submit here as serious thought. There are few left on your side of this issue who are capable of mounting a reasonable argument in support of it. Believe me, you are not one.

And, if I were you, I wouldn't so lightly toss about the word "stupid." It almost certainly will come back to haunt you.

As for the rest, JohnnyReb pretty much said it.

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 09:02 AM
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#55. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 54)
Mon Apr-02-07 09:24 AM by ablib

  

          

I just posted that to see what usual content less drunken drivel you would reply with. It worked. Keep em coming.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeMon Apr-02-07 09:07 AM
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#57. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 55)
Mon Apr-02-07 10:11 AM by jazz4free

  

          

Didn't you rather mean to say "endless" drunken drivel?

I rest my case.

Edit: Well since you chose to change your original "countless" to "content less" I'll take this opportunity to point out that your revised adjective, while arguably apropos, is a compound word desperately in need of a hyphen.

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 01:08 AM
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#74. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 57)


  

          

All I did was add a space between content and less. It never said countless. You're right though it does need a hyphen.


Please, if you're going to post your Anti-america babble here do us the courtesy and quit drinking first.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclTue Apr-03-07 07:01 AM
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#80. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 74)


  

          

What would you know about courtesy?

  

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JohnnyRebTue Apr-03-07 09:30 AM
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#83. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 74)


  

          

Read James' posts... they are not "anti-American" but they are critical of the policies and direction of the current administration. There is a huge difference...

  

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jazz4freeTue Apr-03-07 10:41 AM
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#84. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 74)


  

          

Quote:
Please, if you're going to post your Anti-america babble here do us the courtesy and quit drinking first.


I've said here once before that there is no way for me to defend myself against the presumption that the things I submit are composed while under the influence. The fault is mine -- assume what you will. I won't speak to the matter again.

That you mistake literate thought for drunken babble speaks probably to the fact that you are still a bit wet behind the ears and are not long, if indeed yet, parted from the pedagogies of your Spiderman comics.

That you show little respect for persons who are old enough to be your grandparents, speaks probably to the fact that you are, more-or-less, a punk. Noreen, for one, is not your peer. I'm almost certain she does not wear her ball cap backwards or dye her hair purple, and yet you choose to address her as if she was one of your pimply-faced "dude" buddies. Had I disrespected my grandmother in that way, my grandfather would have taken his razor strap to my backside. As a matter of fact, I recall rather vividly that he once did.

There are people here who have been around the block and back several times, while you give the general impression you are still in your backyard playing in the sandbox. Your observations on geo-politics and most other things are as as adamantly self-assured and yet speciously naive as were mine when I was your tender age. There is nothing wrong in challenging your elders when you think them mistaken, but it might be better received if it were done with a bit more courteous deference.

And, there are persons here who have earned the right to chastise me if they judge I've showed up in their living room drunk. You, young sir, are not one of them.

  

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Dave101Tue Apr-03-07 12:34 PM
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#85. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 84)


  

          

>I'm almost certain she does not wear her ball cap backwards or
>dye her hair purple, and yet you choose to address her as if
>she was one of your pimply-faced "dude" buddies.
OT
That was a good post I just wish you would of kept that ballcap comment out!!! I just turned 46 & wearing the ballcap backwards has nothing to do with age or IQ or respect.

1: It's on backwards to keep the rain outta my neck & back while I'm in the bush for 21 days hunting the great Canadian moose.

2: The cap side is not in the way when I place my red-dot in the kill zone, thus avoiding the possibility of just injuring the animal. When I shoot it goes down.

3: It's orange & keeps me visible to other trigger happy hunters.

4: I don't wear ballcaps the rest of the year, I still have all my hair!!!

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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jazz4freeTue Apr-03-07 01:21 PM
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#86. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Dave101 (Reply # 85)


  

          

I wear mine backward while I'm fishing to keep the sun off my neck.



Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 05:33 PM
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#91. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 84)


  

          

This is why I normally don't participate in threads such as this. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and all you can do is insult people instead of adding to the conversation.

It shows who you really are. It also a clear indication of someone who is in the wrong.


As for Noreen. I don't know how I showed disrespect towards her, but I do know I asked a simple question 3 times and 3 times it was dodged. This is ok as it is typical of someone who's views are on the left. I expected it.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeTue Apr-03-07 06:50 PM
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#92. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 91)


  

          

Quote:
This is why I normally don't participate in threads such as this. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and all you can do is insult people instead of adding to the conversation.


This, I gather, was your "intelligent" part:

"But the general populace of the USA (the ones against the war) are pretty much too stupid to realize this is what we have to do to stop problems BEFORE they begin."

This must have been my insulting part:

"There are few left on your side of this issue who are capable of mounting a reasonable argument in support of it. Believe me, you are not one.

And, if I were you, I wouldn't so lightly toss about the word "stupid." It almost certainly will come back to haunt you."

And, here is your gracious response:

"I just posted that to see what usual content less drunken drivel you would reply with. It worked. Keep em coming."

Followed by:

"Please, if you're going to post your Anti-america babble here do us the courtesy and quit drinking first."

I apologize for having offended you, young man. Enough said...

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 06:54 PM
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#93. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 92)


  

          

Apology accepted.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclTue Apr-03-07 09:07 PM
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#96. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 93)


  

          

As far as I'm concerned it was you who insulted James. I thought that it had been stated some time ago that such posts would not be tolerated here, has that changed?

As far as your question is concerned, I regarded it as one of those "when did you stop beating your wife?" type questions and therefore not worth answering.

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 09:18 PM
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#99. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 96)


  

          

What is this crap?! Where did I insult James? You must of missed his incessant and usual FALSE blather in his post #84.

And if you did think I insulted James and so therfore his return insults are ok. You're wrong.

We all learned along time ago that the "he did it 1st!" argument makes you just as much in the wrong.

Visit the Basement

  

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KJTTue Apr-03-07 08:21 PM
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#94. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 91)


  

          

Quote:
I asked a simple question 3 times and 3 times it was dodged.

if you thought it was a "simple question". You asked a hypothetical question about an extremely complicated situation that at present has no answer other than a hypothetical answer. To answer at all would be to presume knowledge of events that haven't occurred yet. Certainly, nothing at present would appear to justify an attack or invasion of Iran.

Though you probably don't see it, your question would be similar to being told, then asked: "Pres. Bush has really screwed things up. "So at what point would you suggest" he should resign"? Keep in mind, it's "At what point would you suggest" he resign, not should he resign in the first place? You asked Npmcl. quote "So at what point would you suggest Britain go to war with Iran?" without first establishing that it should go to war in the first place.

Adam, of all those of like mind who post in this forum, you alone show independent thought, insight, and judgment - at times. This is not one of those times. Jazz4Free gave you his sober assessment and you respond with a personal attack. I don't know your age - it doesn't really matter - and I don't care to know it - but I will say this, if as you get older, you keep an open mind and exercise your independent thought and judgment rather that parroting the "Fox (type) Noise", you're going to end up a whole lot closer politically to Jazz4free, JohnnyReb, and Npmcl than you ever dreamed possible.

So, let me suggest that you copy and save these threads so that some time in the future you can re-read them, and be amazed, and probably embarrassed, by what you wrote.

Jim.

  

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JohnnyRebTue Apr-03-07 08:56 PM
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#95. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to KJT (Reply # 94)


  

          

Nice post Jim. I also agree that Ablib shows creative and original thinking from time to time. And he also shows Fox News groupthink from time to time. We need to encourage the original part. Even if (God forbid) he stays on the right - I would much rather have an intelligent right than a knee-jerk one.

I was also thinking earlier today (or was it yesterday...) that his line of argumentation is exactly what I would have done 20 years ago.

So Ablib - keep posting. We will keep rebutting. But promise to put some thought into your posts. We know you are capable of it. Give us a good fight! (Or assimilate... )

  

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giseudaTue Apr-03-07 09:16 PM
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#98. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 95)


  

          

What a brainwashing job you "Majestics" are attempting to give.

  

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Dave101Tue Apr-03-07 09:40 PM
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#100. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 98)


  

          

It started to look like a phyciatric(sp) session or something!!!

I musta watched to much Sopranos.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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KJTTue Apr-03-07 10:08 PM
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#101. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 98)


  

          

If I were you, I'd keep an eye on Adam.

He has the ability to think for himself.

Jim.

  

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giseudaTue Apr-03-07 10:16 PM
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#102. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to KJT (Reply # 101)
Tue Apr-03-07 10:21 PM by giseuda

  

          

Yep...and I hope he keeps his independence.

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 07:54 AM
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#103. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 98)


  

          

Quote:
What a brainwashing job you "Majestics" are attempting to give.


Have we climbed all the way up the ranks to "Majestic" now? Cool.

Just for clarification, can you tell us who all the Majestics are?

  

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giseudaWed Apr-04-07 10:51 AM
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#104. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 103)


  

          

Yes I can but I don't think a reminder is necessary.

  

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jazz4freeWed Apr-04-07 11:22 AM
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#105. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 103)


  

          

Anyone with a vocabulary (hic) bigger than 150 words.


Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 09:14 PM
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#97. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to KJT (Reply # 94)


  

          

Sure it was a hypothetical question! One of those "if you were president what would you do" questions. I just want to know what would someone who seems to be so anti-war would do if every diplomatic measure failed. Let Iran keep them? Admit Britian was wrong, Iran was right, they were in Iran illegally just to get the soldiers back?

What should we have done after 9-11? Talk rationally with Al Qaeda and find those responsible without firing a single bullet? Or being extremely polite, nice and proper in an interview with a captured conspirator?

Independent is right. Maybe right of center right now. I call it logical thinking. I don't think one way then put up a wall to any other viewpoint. Or twist the facts to fit my viewpoint.

If I change in 20 years there's nothing wrong with that and is expected.

As for insulting James, I never did. I think we all know he's the king of that. He not only does it once in a post, but repeatedly and at the same time insults others in the process.

Like a backwards hat really makes someone dumb. (I don't wear hats):rolleyes:

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeWed Apr-04-07 12:35 PM
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#107. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 97)


  

          

When unanswered yet repeated for the third time, your "hypothetical" question became badgering.

This, also directed at Noreen, must have been another of your hypothetical questions: "The Middle East. Can you point to that on a map?"

Such obvious sarcasm, and blatant disrespect for an elder, does not go unnoticed.

But I do recognize much of myself in you when I was your age. Like me, you have a short fuse when challenged. But, describing, collectively, those who disagree with your opinions as "stupid" is widely considered unwise policy. It could be downright dangerous if done in a situation where a fist is able to contact your nose. I try to reserve my barbs for individuals who have repeatedly proved themselves worthy of them.

Finally, if you don't consider calling (for any reason) a man who is forty years your senior a blathering drunk an egregious insult, not to mention the height of presumption, then you indeed have much to learn. Hopefully, as Jim pointed out, you'll have many enlightening years ahead of you in which to educate yourself.

Good luck with that, my young friend.





  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 01:18 PM
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#109. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 107)


  

          

Don't worry about me James, I'm too pleased about the release of our people, see later posts. Ablib may like to note that it was achieved without killing anyone.

  

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pakoWed Apr-04-07 01:43 PM
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#110. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 109)


          

Rejoice now, for it will most likely be short lived.


  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 04:13 PM
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#118. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to pako (Reply # 110)


  

          

What will be short-lived?

  

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BobGuyMon Apr-02-07 08:40 AM
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#53. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


          

Ablib I thought it was time to start a new reply as the reply's were getting thin and long.

Quote:
I can somewhat agree where you're coming from. I think that had we not taken Saddam out of power eventually he would wage war on the world. he wasn't letting UN weapons inspectors in, what were we supposed to think?


Saddam didn't have enough military power after the gulf war in 1991 to wage war on his neighbors, let alone the world, and he didn't have the power in 2003 either before we started the crusade for Iraq.

Sorry, the UN weapons inspectors were allowed in and they found nothing nuclear, nada, didn't exist. But that wouldn't wash with congress, Bush needed the WMD's excuse to get congress to give him the authorization to invade Iraq. There were no WMDs to seize. There was no al-Qaeda-Iraqi relationship to disrupt. There never was a snow balls chance in hell of democracy flourishing in Iraq. What idiot dreamed that one up.

Quote:
Let's bring the war here.

Don't be silly.
Bushes most enduring trick has been the "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" crap. In recent months "fighting them over there" has morphed into "If we withdraw, they will follow us here." Rubbish. How are they going to get here, hide in our troops duffel bags? Swim? Wind surf? Jump? Take a taxi cab? Hitch a ride in a stretch limo with Britney Spears?

Despite what Bush tells us on TV, the oceans do, in fact, still protect us. Nobody has an army large enough to invade and occupy the United States, and they certainly don't have a navy or air force capable of transporting a force that size across the Atlantic or Pacific. Even if they did, we could sink them and/or shoot them down before they got halfway here. The U.S. Navy today is more powerful on the high seas than all the navies of the rest of the world, combined.

Obviously, terrorists might still sneak through our borders and ports in drips and drabs like the 9/11 perpetrators did, but nothing we're doing militarily in the Middle East is preventing that from happening. That's Homeland Security's job, and if Homeland Security can't keep terrorists from infiltrating our country, why does it even exist?

OOPS sorry I got off the topic again.

  

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jazz4freeMon Apr-02-07 09:04 AM
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#56. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 53)


  

          

Quote:
OOPS sorry I got off the topic again.


Please, don't apologize. That was right on topic and very well reasoned.

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 09:55 AM
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#59. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 56)


  

          

No we all went off topic. the topic is about the sailors

Visit the Basement

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 10:16 AM
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#60. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 53)
Mon Apr-02-07 10:19 AM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
Despite what Bush tells us on TV, the oceans do, in fact,
still protect us. Nobody has an army large enough to invade
and occupy the United States, and they certainly don't have a
navy or air force capable of transporting a force that size
across the Atlantic or Pacific. Even if they did, we could
sink them and/or shoot them down before they got halfway here.
The U.S. Navy today is more powerful on the high seas than all
the navies of the rest of the world, combined.


I'm not talking about an actual war on our soil. The oceans do protect us. But we don't need to be afraid of an army coming across the ocean to get us. What about a nuke? They can nuke us. What about the anthrax deaths? All it took on 9-11 was 19 terrorists. I sometimes think the far left forgot about 9-11. In one day 19 terrorists killed 3000 people. That's almost the amount of soldiers we have lost in 4 years since the war began . 1 day. I will never forget that day. Or what the camaraderie was like in the USA in the months that followed. It's too bad too many seem to already have.

In case you forgot or James for that matter:




Quote:
Obviously, terrorists might still sneak through our borders
and ports in drips and drabs like the 9/11 perpetrators did,
but nothing we're doing militarily in the Middle East is
preventing that from happening. That's Homeland Security's
job, and if Homeland Security can't keep terrorists from
infiltrating our country, why does it even exist?



How do you know that what we are doing in the middle east isn't doing anything? Are you with the CIA? Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead because of our military efforts in the Middle East, he was most certainly a threat to the US. And I'm sure we have killed many more terrorist thugs that could of in the future had they have lived committed atrocities against the US. Bin Laden could be dead for all we know.

There is just too much we don't know. We're not the CIA and unless we are we receive all of our information from the media. If it isn't from the media we get it from someone who types with an agenda and since war is never liked, that agenda is usually from the spin driven left.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeMon Apr-02-07 10:30 AM
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#61. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 60)


  

          

God help us.

  

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JohnnyRebMon Apr-02-07 10:46 AM
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#62. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 60)


  

          

No one has forgotten 9-11. The difference is that only one group is using it as a tool to strike fear into American hearts and make them more compliant.

  

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nightlyreaderMon Apr-02-07 02:51 PM
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#63. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 62)


          

>No one has forgotten 9-11. The difference is that only one
>group is using it as a tool to strike fear into American
>hearts and make them more compliant.
>
>

Many have forgotten 911, or at least have bumped it back it into their archives. Sure, we may be able to keep a million man army from attacking us in country, but to ignore what goes on in the rest of the world stinks of isolationism. You may as well forget about ever safely traveling abroad as long as terrorist behavior is allowed to propagate. If other countries did a better job of stopping this type of activity, we would not need to get so directly involved with it.

Nightly Reader

  

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JohnnyRebMon Apr-02-07 09:17 PM
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#68. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 63)


  

          

Quote:
If other countries did a better job of stopping this type of activity, we would not need to get so directly involved with it.


Yeah, and if the US did a better job of not making the entire developing world hate it, we would not need to get directly involved either...

  

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nightlyreaderTue Apr-03-07 05:53 AM
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#77. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 68)


          

>

Quote:
If other countries did a better job of stopping
>this type of activity, we would not need to get so directly
>involved with it.

>
>Yeah, and if the US did a better job of not making the entire
>developing world hate it, we would not need to get directly
>involved either...

What about the other countries that have been hit by terrorists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Nightly Reader

  

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JohnnyRebTue Apr-03-07 06:56 AM
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#78. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 77)


  

          

I don't see your point.

  

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nightlyreaderTue Apr-03-07 03:20 PM
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#88. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 78)


          

>I don't see your point.

They hate, period.

Nightly Reader

  

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JohnnyRebTue Apr-03-07 03:31 PM
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#89. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 88)


  

          

Pretty simple-minded opinion... Must be nice to see the world in black and white. Simpler, no moral dilemmas...

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 01:05 AM
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#73. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 62)


  

          

We need the reminder!


I guarantee if 9-11 happend again today, the whole situation in America would change. We would all be for the war in Iraq killing those "arab sons of bitches" as the mindset in America seems to be.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclMon Apr-02-07 05:15 PM
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#64. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 60)
Mon Apr-02-07 05:16 PM by npmcl

  

          

You might like to bear in mind that it was the act of invading Iraq that caused al Qaeda terrorists to become active in that country.

Quote:
Thursday, June 17, 2004: Page A01

The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. In yesterday's hearing of the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, a senior FBI official and a senior CIA analyst concurred with the finding.

The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States.".......
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html

Note
Quote:
But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information

  

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Bob HMon Apr-02-07 05:21 PM
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#65. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 64)


  

          

I don't know what you mean by active. They were there but obviously they had nothing to attack. Just because they weren't killing didn't mean they weren't active in proposing an alliance with Hussein.



  

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npmclMon Apr-02-07 09:00 PM
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#67. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 65)


  

          

They weren't there.

  

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Bob HMon Apr-02-07 10:39 PM
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#70. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 67)


  

          

That is simplistic and naive. Of course they were there. It was a safe haven after Afghanistan was invaded. The contacts mentioned were surely not conducted over distance by air or wire as the intel capture capabilities of your country and mine are well known.



  

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npmclTue Apr-03-07 06:59 AM
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#79. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 70)
Tue Apr-03-07 07:26 AM by npmcl

  

          

Iraq wasn't a "safe haven" for them then. Iraq was a secular state and Al Qaeda is a terrorist religious organisation and Saddam Hussein would not have tolerated them, they were mutually antagonistic even if Al Qaeda did make tentative contacts.

They weren't there. See this further quote from the above US document.

Quote:
It added that the (Iraqi) government "did not have a relationship, harbour or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates".

It said that Iraq and al-Qaeda were ideologically poles apart.

"Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support," it said.

The Senate report added that the Iraqi regime had repeatedly rejected al-Qaeda requests for meetings.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5328592.stm

  

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jazz4freeMon Apr-02-07 11:41 PM
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#71. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 67)


  

          

Of course they weren't there. Besides all the intel attesting to that fact, Saddam, as we are constantly reminded, was a brutal sectarian dictator who ruled with an iron fist. He would not tolerate for a moment even a hint of a threat to his absolute authority. It defies logic to think he would allow safe haven to a treacherous gang of armed religious fanatics who bore allegiance only to Allah and Al-Qaeda.

Saddam was evil personified, but he was neither stupid or suicidal.

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 01:12 AM
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#75. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 67)


  

          

But they were there in the region. The Middle East. Can you point to that on a map? Bush's Iraq war didn't create terroists. It just shifted them to Iraq and we're killing them there now. Who cares if they supposedly wern't there to begin with.

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebTue Apr-03-07 05:39 AM
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#76. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 75)


  

          

Well, if Iraq is culpable by proximity, then so is the US. They were in the US as well... Trying to set up training camps in the Pacific Northwest...

Remember?

  

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jazz4freeTue Apr-03-07 09:09 AM
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#82. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to ablib (Reply # 75)


  

          

Following that logic, America should have gone to war with Indonesia, the Philippines, Most of Western Europe including Great Britain, Canada and parts of itself.

Getting a handle on international Islamic terrorism initially is a job for the police and the intelligence services and the specialized military units of the world. It's a matter of infiltrating and destroying a clandestine cell in Berlin or London or Secaucus, NJ, freezing a Swiss bank account, seeking, finding and destroying Bin Laden and his cronies in their Pakistan rat holes.

In the meantime, and ultimately, it's a job for the politicos, the diplomats, and all of us in both the Arab and Western street who need a goddamned attitude change.

If you subscribe to the simplistic and misguided logic of this administration and its few clinging hardcore supporters -- that we are fighting them there so we won't have to fight them here -- then you are whistling past the graveyard.

By fighting "them" there, entrenching in their midst what "they" view an infidel army of occupation, we have thus far been successful in one thing only -- swelling their ranks one-thousand fold.

  

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ablibMon Apr-02-07 05:24 PM
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#66. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 64)


  

          

So at what point would you suggest Britian go to war with Iran?

Visit the Basement

  

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mickozMon Apr-02-07 09:25 PM
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#69. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 64)


  

          

Personally I think it was all about oil and a sons attempt to try and fix
up what his old man should have finished when he had the chance.

  

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giseudaTue Apr-03-07 12:53 AM
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#72. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to mickoz (Reply # 69)


  

          

There's more truth to that than alot of people want to believe.

  

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npmclTue Apr-03-07 07:41 AM
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#81. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)
Tue Apr-03-07 07:46 AM by npmcl

  

          

"Let us return to our sheep". There are hopeful signs this morning that a diplomatic solution may be found although it's still early days.

Quote:
Britain and Iran should be able to end the stand-off over the capture of 15 Royal Navy personnel by negotiating, a senior Tehran official has said.

Ali Larijani, of the Supreme National Security Council, told state radio the issue would be resolved if the two countries "continue this path".

The UK Foreign Office said talks were continuing with a "more positive feel".....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520571.stm

The Iranian President was due to give a press conference this morning but this has now been postponed until tomorrow, we obviously don't know what this implies.

  

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JenniferL.Tue Apr-03-07 01:57 PM
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#87. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


  

          

FromThe Guardian:

Quote:
Call that humiliation?


No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch


Read on

__________________________
"Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fever. For patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword; it both emboldens the blood just as it narrows the mind." -Julius Caesar

  

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ablibTue Apr-03-07 05:29 PM
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#90. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JenniferL. (Reply # 87)


  

          

Belated April fools joke?

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 12:25 PM
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#106. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 0)


  

          

-- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says he has pardoned the 15 British sailors and marines detained last month and will set them free.

  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 01:15 PM
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#108. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 106)
Wed Apr-04-07 01:20 PM by npmcl

  

          

Whatever the reason for the release it shows that talking rather than shooting can achieve results, you may remember that Israel never got their two soldiers back.

Quote:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says 15 British naval personnel captured in the Gulf will be freed.

He repeated allegations that the British sailors and marines "invaded" Iranian waters, but said they would be freed as a "gift" to Britain.

He made the announcement at a news conference, in which he also awarded medals to the commanders who captured the British personnel in the Gulf.

He said the Britons would be released immediately and taken to an airport.........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6525905.stm

  

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mickozWed Apr-04-07 02:51 PM
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#111. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 108)


  

          

It would be very interesting to actually know all the facts behind the
release but we never will. I am glad that they are on their way home.

  

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JordanWed Apr-04-07 02:59 PM
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#112. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to mickoz (Reply # 111)


  

          

From the Washington Post: CAMP DAVID, March 31 -- President Bush on Saturday condemned Iran's seizure of 15 British sailors and marines as "inexcusable behavior" and demanded that the "hostages" be released, weighing in for the first time as the situation escalates into a sustained confrontation with Tehran.
Today it is announced that the hostages are being released.
Coincidence? I think not.

  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 03:07 PM
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#113. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 112)


  

          

  

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JordanWed Apr-04-07 03:46 PM
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#116. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 113)


  

          

I will repeat what I stated in the past - Your country is well on the way to pussification.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/03282007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/hostage_sailors____britains_impotence_opedcolumnists_arthur_herman.htm?page=0

  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 04:08 PM
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#117. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 116)


  

          

Gosh! What a shame we managed to get our people released unharmed, we should have blustered and threatened more and let them rot in jail. BTW the last part of the quote can be interpreted in different ways.

Quote:
The Iranian leader said no concessions had been made by the British government to secure the releases, but that Britain had pledged "that the incident would not be repeated".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6525905.stm

  

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JordanWed Apr-04-07 04:14 PM
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#120. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 117)


  

          

Apparently you also do not believe in protecting your sailors:
From the article:
The latest report is that the Britons were ready to fight off their abductors. Certainly their escorting ship, HMS Cornwall, could have blown the Iranian naval vessel out of the water. However, at the last minute the British Ministry of Defense ordered the Cornwall not to fire, and her captain and crew were forced to watch their shipmates led away into captivity.

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 05:01 PM
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#122. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 120)


  

          

Jordan... you never cease to amaze me... Do you have ANY understanding of politics except gunboat diplomacy?

  

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JordanWed Apr-04-07 05:27 PM
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#123. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 122)


  

          

I asked before and you did not answer so I repeat the question:
Would you and your ilk ever take action to protect yourselves?

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 05:56 PM
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#124. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 123)


  

          

You are a true piece of work.

  

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npmclWed Apr-04-07 09:21 PM
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#125. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 120)


  

          

The sailors and Marines only had revolvers and rifles, the Iraqis in several vessels had grenade launchers and heavy machine-guns and outnumbered the British, it would have been suicidal to resist. HMS Cornwall was four miles away so I doubt that her captain and crew watched the captives being led away except remotely. Of course HMS Cornwall could have attacked the Iraqi boats no doubt killing our people in the process which would have made the whole thing rather pointless.

However if you're just looking for an excuse to start a war................

  

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Ed W.Wed Apr-04-07 10:04 PM
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#126. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 125)


          

Why was the ship 8 miles from the ship they boarded? Why did their covering Helo leave the scene before they had finished searching the ship? Why was their conduct rater disappointing for Military members in captivity?

Iran won this round.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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ablibWed Apr-04-07 10:24 PM
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#127. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 126)


  

          

I disagree

Visit the Basement

  

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JordanWed Apr-04-07 10:43 PM
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#128. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 125)


  

          

So I guess if the Iranian navy naviagated the river Thames to London and kidnapped 20 or so civilians they would face no resisitance to their departure because of a fear of injuring someone. After all, Britain could always file a protest and negotiate for their return.

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 03:29 PM
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#114. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 112)


  

          

Quote:
I think not.


Well Jordan, you finally said something I can agree wholeheartedly with!

  

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KJTWed Apr-04-07 03:45 PM
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#115. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 114)


  

          

Quote:
Well Jordan, you finally said something I can agree wholeheartedly with!


Really? You think that Pres. Bush's posturing gained the hostages release?

What Jordan wrote:
Quote:
President Bush on Saturday condemned Iran's seizure of 15 British sailors and marines as "inexcusable behavior" and demanded that the "hostages" be released, weighing in for the first time as the situation escalates into a sustained confrontation with Tehran

Coincidence? I think not.
(I added the bold type for emphasis.)

Jim.

  

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jazz4freeWed Apr-04-07 04:14 PM
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#119. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to KJT (Reply # 115)


  

          

I think JR would rather you highlighted the, "I think not" part of Jordan's proposal.

The announced release of the hostages is probably more a result of the much more pragmatic Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei whispering loudly into the ear of his crazy little President that he had milked this particular cow dry and that he'd better move things along before Iran had to revert to camels as their main mode of transport.

Crazy George's unwanted comments fortunately arrived too late to complicate delicate behind the scenes bi-lateral diplomacy between Britain and Iran.

  

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JohnnyRebWed Apr-04-07 04:59 PM
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#121. "RE: UK sailors captured at gunpoint"
In response to KJT (Reply # 115)


  

          

Yep, James is right. I was poking fun at Jordan not thinking...

  

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