December 17, 2002

In a not-so-cryptic “message” eventually intended for all U.S. citizens -- but likely one very famous American in particular, three armed U.S. Secret Service agents and a local sheriff employed psychological intimidation to invade the privacy of retired U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer Michael Moore, 49, of Goldston, North Carolina at his home on December 10, 2002.

In another warning sign of what lies ahead for all Americans regarding police-state abuse of power (thanks to sections of the post-September 11 “Patriot Act” approved by Congress and signed into law by President Bush), U.S. Intelligence intercepted North Carolinian Michael Moore’s email -- likely believing it was written by independent film producer-icon (“Bowling for Columbine”) and author (“Stupid White Men”) Michael Moore. In other words, they got the wrong Michael Moore.

The Michael Moore raided by the Secret Service last week is a 20-year war veteran who put his life on the line for his country during two separate tours of duty aboard the U.S.S. Paul Revere off the coast of Vietnam in 1971 and 1972 -- one of which was a highly dangerous mine-sweeping operation.

Finding a few controversial albeit First Amendment-protected words in the Navy vet’s email, the Intelligence agents apparently decided to kill two birds with one stone:

1) intimidate the former Vietnam veteran into allowing them to violate his personal privacy by performing a search of his home while knowing the story would reach the public -- thereby inculcating citizen fear of government power, and 2) send a veiled “message” to fervent presidential-critic and celebrity Michael Moore to let him know what lies down the road for him should his high-profile and media-oriented presidential disdain persist.

There are no reports yet as to whether Michael Moore, the film and book luminary, will join the Navy vet with his appellation to promulgate a legal inquiry into how various sections of the Patriot Act are abused by government officials in order to intimidate and distress the citizenry. That may require the services of a constitutional attorney as valiant as the two Moores will need to be.

According to Moore -- the North Carolinian who served in Vietnam, the Secret Service agents informed him that “they work with the FBI and National Security Agency (NSA) jointly on national security issues” -- all of which was exclusively reported yesterday via the probingly perceptive questioning of Meria Heller during a live interview on her Meria Heller Internet Show.

One of the agents told Moore that they had “intercepted his email written to an online friend expressing his outrage over the recent election results and that he had called President Bush ‘Satan -- the third anti-Christ,’ and a ‘Communist Republican,’ ” among other soubriquets.

In a special-report/email posted on Tom Flocco.com from his online friend “BlackBear,” the 20-year war veteran revealed that the agents said that they “had to access my email to see if I posed a national security risk to the President -- who I now call the ‘Bush-Whacker.’ ”

The Secret Service agents and the local sheriff -- all displaying side-arms -- wanted more, however -- a portent of police-state prospects facing all Americans. They asked Michael Moore if they could enter his home because they “wanted to ask him some questions and fill out forms for about a half hour -- which turned into more than an hour.”

Moore said “they asked me what kind of drugs I am on, and where they could contact my ex-wife,” adding that “they also required that I sign a form permitting them to access all my medical history in the San Diego and Raleigh-Durham Veteran’s hospitals.”

“I was in shock and intimidated,” he told us in a phone interview last night, adding “I just cooperated in order to get them out of my home as soon as possible.”

Curiously, the next series of questions became all the more abusive to Moore as he began to realize that “if the agents were already intercepting my email, they undoubtedly also had total prior access to my military occupational specialty (MOS) records, and other personal information not available to other citizens -- before they even entered my home.”

“I was also upset when they asked for the names, addresses, and phone numbers of all my family,” the Navy vet continued: “They wanted to know if I had a history of mental illness, what I thought about assassinations, if I was going to Washington, DC to shoot the President, when was the last time I was out-of-state, whether I had sniper training in the military, what work I did in the Navy, and if I had a grudge against the Navy, etc.”

His close friend, BlackBear, said "Here is a guy who called me and asked if I would come to Goldston the first Saturday in November when the tiny town hosted the First Annual Chatham County Veterans Day Parade in which Mike Moore proudly donned his Chief Petty Officer's uniform and marched in the parade, passing out miniature American flags to the spectators."

Moore was adamant when he told us “they point-blank asked me if I was going to Washington to shoot the President -- after they had already intercepted the email I wrote to my friend saying that ‘under no circumstances would I ever leave my house until the Democrats regained control of the White House,’ ” adding “they knew I wasn’t going anywhere.”

“They literally raped my mind -- psychologically,” he said.

But the intimidation didn’t stop there. The soldier with a well-known name added, “They wrote down information from my military Retiree’s I.D., my driver’s license, and my vehicle license plate number.” (Information they already possessed before they even made the decision to pay Michael Moore a visit.)

In another abuse of his rights against unwanted search without a warrant, Moore revealed that “the local Sheriff (who accompanied the agents into his home) and one other agent wandered throughout my house while I was being interviewed by one of the other Secret Service agents in my dining room.”

One wonders whether legislators would even do anything about such abuse of power -- given the current state of affairs.

“Feeling that I had been psychologically raped by these government agents, I was also intimidated into allowing them to take four Polaroid pictures of me, after they asked me not to go to Washington, DC in the future.”

The strange irony of this disturbing, Patriot Act-enabled incident is that Michael Moore the celebrity is very likely the real person to which the Secret Service, FBI, and NSA was issuing a warning.

Many Americans already know that taxpayer-funded echelon satellites regularly monitor phone calls, movements, and electronic communications of American citizens on “the list” of dissenting individuals who protest the loss of individual rights and freedoms which have accompanied the current administration -- even patriotic, law-abiding, military veterans who have faithfully served their country, government “chicken-hawks” notwithstanding.

The real question is whether the two Michael Moores will test the abuse of power in a court of law.

Abuse of power used to be an impeachable offense. And if a Vietnam vet like Michael Moore had Secret Service agents visit him, question him, and search his home when they already had access to the very information they were requiring from him in his home, is it likely that other far more out-spoken individuals like 9/11 victim-family activists Kristen Breitweiser, Ellen Mariani, and Stephen Push are being monitored too.

And what about other Americans, famous or not, who are critical of the loss of their individual freedoms in verbal interviews and written stories, or when they communicate with one another in what used to be personal emails -- or when they make what used to be personal phone calls?

The only difference with Breitweiser, Mariani, and Push is that government agencies will not violate them personally in their homes like Michael Moore. That would be too damaging politically -- given their high profile. Theirs will be a more subtle and clandestine administration-sponsored scrutiny, thanks to a secret court in Baltimore.

More reasonably, they can expect that their phone calls and emails are being quietly monitored since these brave Americans -- like celebrity Moore and his film ventures -- are in the vanguard of those who could do the most political harm to certain government officials.

By exposing corruption through the art of film-making, pressing for the testimony of high-ranking officials, or demonstrating for subpoenas of suppressed yet crucial FBI, CIA and presidential briefing documents, these individuals are a real threat to uncover the truth of 9/11’s events and its unanswered questions.

For just like the famous Michael Moore with his movies and books, and Michael Moore the war veteran from North Carolina, these 9/11 victim-family members are also protesting in their own way.

They are expressing dissent about the current congressional cover-up of the events of September 11 and the efforts of the administration to appoint “independent” investigators who will sabotage their private or legal efforts to unlock the unanswered secrets to the 9/11 questions.

Asked how he would handle the same situation if Secret Service agents ever knock on his door again: “I would never let them into my home again without a valid, notarized search warrant issued by a judge; and if I am forced to let them in, I will have a camera ready at the door to take their picture, just like they took mine,” replied Moore.

“What kind of democracy is this in our ‘so-called’ great nation when we cannot even write an email message without the fear of our government intercepting it and then being violently raped through an intense personal interrogation,” Moore added, as the interview concluded.

While we will wait with anticipation to hear the reaction to this story by the OTHER Michael Moore, we can envision another inimitable, unique tour d’ force film-production complete with hovering helicopters, secret agents, listening devises, home searches, surveillance cameras, and neighbors spying on one another -- all part of the new Bush Administration Americana and secrecy with which we are becoming acquainted.

Tragic? Yes. Unavoidable? Of course not. You see, the rest of the world is watching to see whether the Breitweisers, Marianis, Pushes, and Moores of America have the endurance to keep fighting back and pressing on. It won’t be easy -- given the “oil-soaked, energy-grabbing, spy-riddled monopoly press” (to coin a Sherman Skolnick phrase) -- who are providing cover for much of the corruption and abuse of power which never reaches the sensibilities of Joe Six-pack. They will need help from other patriots.

But Michael Moore -- the Navy vet -- couldn’t resist reiterating just one “more” dig that he had stated earlier during Meria Heller’s exclusive and live internet dialogue yesterday: “The ordeal I had to go through seven days ago is THE prime example and proof of our democracy in the ‘Republic of the Divided States of America.’ ”

And with that, we could hear in the background the mesmerizing and melodious strains of that recent Will Smith film epoch: “Here come the Men in Black -- galaxy defenders!”

Right.

http://www.tomflocco.com/secret_service_intercepted_michael_moore\'s_E-Mail.htm

And this government critic is also being harassed -

http://www.voxnyc.com/

Who's next?

That story does not appear on any major news outlets, and considering the extreme sensationalism and bias shown throughout that article, it's highly unlikely that it's at all based in fact.
Oh, and Tom Flocco has absolutely no web design skills. Seriously, he shouldn't be allowed within ten feet of an HTML editor.

Could this be, propaganda?

Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

I don't know, I found it here also.. http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=2 All these top notch news organizations couldn't be wrong could they?WALDO

Walter A Robertson

Attachment #1, (gif file)

If it shows up on 60 Minutes, we will know.

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Excellent Hal9000!!!

Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

It seems that Hal and Freespirit are once again touting propaganda and conspiracy history.

Hal, how about a reaction to the following article: BTW, did you notice the authors name was placed on it on this board one did not have to locate it elsewhere to find out the poster did not write it.

December 5, 2002
Disastrous Utopia
Thomas Sowell

Socialism is a wonderful idea. It is only as a reality that it has been disastrous. Among people of every race, color, and creed, all around the world, socialism has led to hunger in countries that used to have surplus food to export.

Its economic disasters have afflicted virtually every industry. In its Communist version, it killed far more innocent civilians in peacetime than Hitler killed in his death camps during World War II.
Nevertheless, for many of those who deal primarily in ideas, socialism remains an attractive idea -- in fact, seductive. Its every failure is explained away as due to the inadequacies of particular leaders.

Many of the intelligentsia remain convinced that if only there had been better leaders -- people like themselves, for example -- it would all have worked out fine, according to plan.

A remarkable new book makes the history of socialism come alive. Its title is "Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism." Its author, Joshua Muravchik, is a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a leading think tank in Washington. It is hard to find a book on the history of socialism that is either readable or accurate, so it is especially remarkable to find one that is both. The story told in "Heaven on Earth" is so dramatic and compelling that the author finds no need to gild the lily with rhetoric or hype. It is a great read.

This history of socialism begins more than two centuries ago, at the time of the French Revolution, with the radical conspirator Babeuf, who wanted to carry the revolutionary ideas of the times even farther, to a communist society.

It ends with current British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who brought the Labour Party back to power by dropping the core of its socialist agenda and putting distance between himself and previous Labour Party governments, whose socialist policies had so backfired that the party lost four consecutive national elections.

In between, there are stories of small communal societies, such as that founded in the 19th century by Robert Owen, the man who coined the word "socialism," as well as stories of huge nations like China and the empire that was known as the Soviet Union.

In all these very different societies around the world, the story of socialism has been a story of high hopes and bitter disappointments. Attempts to redistribute wealth repeatedly led to the redistribution of poverty.

Attempts to free ordinary people from oppression repeatedly led to what Mikhail Gorbachev frankly called "servility" to new despots. How and why are spelled out with both facts and brilliant insights expressed in plain words.

Human nature has been at the heart of the failures of socialism to produce the results it sought, even when socialist leaders were idealists like Julius Nyerere in Tanzania or Pandit Nehru in India.
Nowhere have people been willing to work as well for the common good as they do for their own benefit. Perhaps in some other galaxy there are creatures who would, but the track record of socialism among human beings on earth shows that this is not the place.

Worst of all, the concentration of political power necessary to try to reduce economic inequalities has allowed tyrants like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot to impose their notions and caprices on millions of others -- draining them economically or slaughtering them en masse or exploiting them sexually.

Mao Zedong, for example, had harems of young girls -- and occasionally boys -- for his pleasure in various parts of China.
There is no point blaming the tragedies of socialism on the flaws or corruption of particular leaders. Any system which allows some people to exercise unbridled power over other people is an open invitation to abuse, whether that system is called slavery or socialism or something else.

Socialism has long sought to create a heaven on earth but an even older philosophy pointed out that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.









http://www.bobbalogh.com/

And that same human nature was at the heart of the Spaniards in south and Central America; the Portuguese in Angola, Mozambique and Brazil; the Belgians in the Congo; the Germans in southwest Africa; the Italians in Lybia, Ethiopia and Somalia; the Dutch in the East Indies; the French in North Africa, Madagascar and Indochina; the British in Ireland, China, India, Africa and the Middle East; the Japanese in Manuchuria and China and the Americans in North America, Central America, Indochina, the Philippines and the Caribbean.

As well as the current corporate-government-media-complex and its drive to dominate and rule the world by exploiting everyone and everything in sight.

And you are one of its major spokesmen. You've been bought and paid for real cheap with the vacancy of your mind--filled with nothing but Kleenex and costume jewelry. Go sell jingoism somewhere else...we're all stocked up here. Move on to the next patriotic sideshow.

Really, HAL, how would you know? Have you bothered to actually experience any of the realities you are so concerned with?

By the way, edit your image replies. They are too large. Some of the people who come to this forum are on dialup. Show some courtesy and sense.

Every single time you or Balo post your avatars featuring those silly, featherbrained gifs, you use up almost as many kb's as one of the images I posted.

Where's your courtesy and sense? Style before substance is it? Do as I say not as I do?

BTW, I think you've received more than enough milage out of that stock "experience" analogy. Stick to discussing the actual issues at hand like a man, instead of empty-headed and adolescent character innuendos.

First,

Regarding the gifs. No, they don't use up as much bandwidth. THey are cached and brought back from your harddrive, not over the net each time. Since you are on a computer forum, but unwilling to listen to directions regarding that forum and computer issues from a moderator, I'll take care of it for you.

As for experience, you don't have any, so of course you "pooh-pooh" it. But the fact remains that without experience, you are nothing but hot air.

LOL! For nothing but "hot air," I sure command a hell of a lot of your attention.

". . . And you are one of its major spokesmen. You've been bought and paid for real cheap with the vacancy of your mind--filled with nothing but Kleenex and costume jewelry. Go sell jingoism somewhere else...we're all stocked up here. Move on to the next patriotic sideshow."

Hal, Is it ever possible for you to answer a post without being insulting? I do not recall ever insulting you. But then again, I guess that when your arguments are faulty you lack the ability to argue you fall to the quarrelsome insulting level.

Sad - really Sad.










http://www.bobbalogh.com/

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Hal, you might want to polish your computer skills. To post black and white images 25K or more in size,that would be just as effective a few Kb in size, is a burden on those who lack broadband, and worse may have to pay by the minute in some other countries. Ironically, it also will cause members with limited bandwidth to actively avoid your posts, and the threads that contain them. I will be a lot more impressed with your professed compassion when you show a little for the members of this forum.

Shelly

HAL, those are pretty big.. I think its like 350KB of images. Might want to edit them for size. Although I do think they are funny

Consider it an anomaly worth the price of admission. You know as well as I Shelly...that I rarely post this many images. Think of it as, a large and loud statement bellowing from the rooftops.

Besides Shelly, as you've pointed out, I'm the fringe element. The irony you speak of will most likey be tolerated. If not...so be it.

Jeez, Balo, you make it sound like Hal and I are some sort of team out to spread disinformation. I heard this on an internet broadcast, Googled it, and posted. I'm very concerned about the run-away-train that is crushing our civil liberties, so I take an interest when I hear something like this. I am not a socialist (not even close), and I'm not a fan of Michael Moore, the filmmaker. I am opposed to the absolute power given the federal government by the Patriot Act, TIA Program, the Anti-Terrorism Crime Bill, ect., etc, etc.

Why the lecture on socialism? Are the rights of a socialist or communist any less important that those of the Libertarian? Michael Moore's (the filmmaker or the military veteran) views on politics do not concern me, in any way. His right to express those views does. Given the bent of the current administration, he is exaclty the type of person I would expect to be harassed. In the Clinton administration, it was critics on the right, like militias, who were the enemy of the day. I remember reading in "The Gulag Archipelago" Solzhenitsyn saying how the authorities came after one group, for instance, dissidents, and nobody cared. Afterall, they weren't dissidents, so they were not at risk. Then it was another group. Doctors, intellectuals, engineers, until they came for everyone. Solzhenitsyn lamented the opportunity lost to have spoken up earlier. That is why I speak up about these things. I do beleive IT CAN HAPPEN HERE.

Now, we may find there are inaccuracies in this story, or conversely, it may be all true. Either way, I won't regret being vigilant about my freedom. Had I posted a story about a right wing individual being harassed, and if it turned out not to be true, I probably would have gotten a few responses with a "Snopes" link and a winky face. For some reason, any critisism of the current administration, and their Orwellian policies, seems to get peoples ire up around here.

I don't like being labeled. The posting of the information on socialism, I felt, implied that I had those leanings, because of what I chose to show concern about. For the record, I'll put out a few of my opinions, and then, at least, you can label me more accurately.

I support the legalisation of all drugs and the right of someone to destroy their life with them, if they choose. (a Libertarian position)
I think that all income tax should be abololished and that a tax of that nature is unconstitutional.
I believe that the socialist welfare state has created a permanent underclass and that those in need would be better served by charity.
I do not believe in the redistribution of wealth.
I am a supporter of homosexual rights to be married.
I believe that all corporations should be disolved and that no special status or favor should be conferred upon any business. True capitolism, in my opinion.
I don't believe that someone without children in a school system should pay one cent to support other peoples kids. I chose not to have kids because I could not afford to, so why should I support yours?
I am an environmental extremist. I feel that the right to clean air and water is the right of all living beings and should not be compromised for the profit of a few.
I think animals should be allowed in restaurants.
I believe that the Constitution of the United States is the best thing we have going and that our government should be confined by the restraints laid out in it.
I believe that GATT, NAFTA, and the WTO completely undermine our sovereignty, in favor of weathly, multinational corporate interests.
I am a vegetarian and believe that aniamls are not a commodity to be exploited by human beings.
I believe in aliens.

Put me in whatever catagory you want. Whatever that is, I will continue to defend the civil rights of others, right wing or left wing, and I will never trust big government and it's natural inclination for absolute power.

Nonsense, the welfare state exists so that people in the Corporate world can look good for donating to the poor, and more importantly so hundreds of thousand social service workers can keep their jobs. Why else would the process of collecting welfare be so easy, yet the process for getting off welfare can be next to impossible.

(100!!!) }> WALDO

Walter A Robertson

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:'( }> You go Hal9000! WALDO

Walter A Robertson

Jesus Hal, have you ever heard of reducing the colors in an image? Does a black and white comic strip really need a 256 color palette? You can reduce that image to 11KB by simple lowering the number of colors to 2, with very little loss of quality.

I don't know whether this report is true or not, but, there are certain people that will react to it solely from their obsessive desire for it to be so. This can be dangerous; it can have a "snowball" effect. Find out first the validity, then proceed to debate. Evil thoughts do not manifest wondrous deeds.


quint

quint

I do not know whether the article by Tom Flocco at the beginning of this post is true or not. What I do know is a little research has not been able to come up with any "print" articles by Flocco outside of the internet. Nothing in the mainstream press seems to exist. Perhaps either Hal or Freespirit could tell us why or correct me if I am mistaken.







http://www.bobbalogh.com/

Flocco sounds just like Jack Chick. Chick had a vendetta against the Catholic Church that he was never able to get into the mainstream media. He made a lot of colorful comic books though. It sounded just like the above drivel.

If it isn't true...it will be. Have you read the Patriot Act? Or haven't you bothered?

The poor seek security. The rich seek more money. But the real rulers seek power, because power gets them control of everything that human beings seek.

"If it isn't true...it will be. Have you read the Patriot
Act? Or haven't you bothered? . . ."

Wow, Hal, if it isn't true it will be. Perhaps you been watching that Tom Cruise movie where they arrest people who will commit murder in the future.

Wow, you and your friends, professed Civil Liberterians, defenders of our rights are now telling us "If it isn't true. . . it will be." That's your rational for the big lie approach.

Wow Hal, I guess we are lucky to have you seeing the future for us even if you bend the truth to point it out.

Wow Hal, thanks for your in depth insights.

All I can really say is:

Wow Hal, it's a pleasure to see you finally, openly demonstrate who and what you are. Thanks for taking off the mask!!!











http://www.bobbalogh.com/

LOL!

I'll be you're all out of breath now with all that frantic HTML. Don't you have a soliloquy to make somewhere?

"because power gets them control of everything that human beings seek."

That is security and money, which is what all humans seek. Then we die, and the cycle begins with another.

I don't know if you are aware of this hal9000, but this has been going on since humans took over the earth. Before us, the dinosaurs were running around eating each other. We are no different in wants or needs, and conspiracy theorems will always abound. It does make for excellent conversation though!

Keep 'um coming! This is entertaining!

This is true...but never on a global scale of this nature before--that's unprecendented; where NATO is controlled by the US and the economies of the powerful G8 countries and others are in alliance.

I fear what you're missing is the global corporate factor in all this. The power of the WTO,IMF and World Bank. Three quarters of the natural resouces in Asia, Africa, and Latin America are contolled by US and European corporations. It's the corporate elite that's calling the shots and running the show regarding American Foreign Policy. This isn't about politics it's about the control of the world's resources at the expense of the little people.

Read this: http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/hal80.html

We are fastly becoming a global economy. Some believe that business will take the place of governments. Business exists to provide for all in an efficient manner. This, in and of itself, is not a bad idea. However, there is much to go wrong. Fallible people are always going to be in control. Government is the instituion we rely upon to keep things in place. Yes, we are very dependent on oil to maintain our massive economic engine. Yes, wars are fought for access to this oil. Everyone across the planet has a different idea on how life should be - religiously, economically, and in ideology. This will only change when the economy is truly global, and all realize that we really do need each other.

Things will only change when people know and see the truth!

The conclusions you've drawn are simplistic generalities. If you're really interested in learning the truth, you'll investigate further. I've already indicated on this thread that a handful of corporations control most of the natural resources in the third world. That has taken place at the expense of millions of lives involving torture, oppression and brutal dictatorships in which transnational corporations and their US government puppets and allies play a major role. What's going on is more like a deadly infection: a corporate-capitalist-imperialist expansion on a global scale controlled by an elite handful of financiers. This isn't some wild conspiracy. The information is all out there in the open. Anyone whose unwilling to listen or who doesn't see it... is asleep.

OK by me...let the dead bury the dead.

Earlier in history, a hand-full of nations controlled most of the third world. Earlier than that, the Roman Empire had it all. Only the names have changed. Yes, my generalities were simplistic, but out of necessity. One does not have to relate all to prove a point. We act no differently now as humans than we did 2000 years ago, or even further back. The only difference now is that everyone that wants to hear, can hear about it almost instantly. There have been doomsayers for centuries. I do not disagree with you on all counts, and I believe that those with your point of view are necessary to keep the rest of us on our toes. I do listen to you, although I may not share your extreme point of view. Events in the world are NOW, not something one hears about six months later. I believe this is why some push the panic button quicker than others.

Mik

First of all, I'm not predicting doom, quite the contrary. I predict a new era or new age--the dawn of a new type of spiritual consciousness; a rebirth or as many believe a Second Coming.

And again you're missing the point. The nature of future oppression I speak of is the control of your mind. Never before in the history of this planet have we had the technological capability of monitoring and controlling almost every single activity of virtually every human being within a unified electronic, digital tracking system. Additionally, the concentration of power and wealth has never before been in the hands of so few over so many.

Science fiction is not fiction! It provides us with glimpses of possible futures. The very core--the foundation of truth and reality as we know it is in the process of being redefined. It is what Orwell called Newspeak and relates to his concepts of War is Peace, the Ministry of Truth, the Thought Police, Double Think and Face Crime. When people begin to embrace as truth, the notion that striking first (as with Iraq) preserves peace, you know we have arrived--when in fact it is the US that poses the biggest threat to world peace.

The reality of underground cultures and societies has long been addressed in films like The Matrix, Escape From New York, Zardoz and THX1138. There is also the emergence of a virtual consciousness that has its seed in many on-line interactive games known as MMORPG's like Entropia and EverQuest, where millions of computer users are linked together simultaneously. Earth's populous will eventually be divided into a schism--those connected, those underground (mark of the beast kind of thing)and those who work as go-betweens.

And sure, after it's all over, will all kick back together and laugh.

The only person that can control your mind is you.

Then what's your excuse? Or the legions like you.

More like what is your excuse? Paranoid, have you bothered to get medical help?

"Never before in the history of this planet have we had the technological capability of monitoring and controlling almost every single activity of virtually every human being within a unified electronic, digital tracking system."

Give me a break Hal, in the dawn of the 21st century I live in an area where I can't even get consistent cell phone coverage.

And science fiction is exactly that, fiction. There is no Matrix with Neo being chased by guys in cheap suits, no blue pills or red pills. You choose which fiction you want to believe for the future, you choose the George Orwell view of the future ( by my calculations, Orwell is 18 years off ), I choose the Star Trek science fictional future, where everything is all sweetness and light, except for those darn Klingons. It doesn't matter, because it is still fiction. Most people who live in the real world can tell the difference between words on a page and reality.

On another matter, thank you for posting the link to those comics you posted above that were removed for bandwidth considerations, they should have never been placed there. I realize you have a problem with reading comprehension at times, but each and every one of those comics on that page had a warning that the "Cartoon cannot be used in any way without artist's permission!"

In bright red letters, it was real hard to miss.

Each and every time you stole borrowed one of those comics and posted it here you violated that rule and could possibly have put this entire website at risk for posting copyrighted material.
The world works better when everyone plays by the rules, and your theft misuse of those comics was pretty flagrant. And please don't try to argue the "fair use" loophole, that is a real stretch.
Or perhaps you don't recognize rules meant for us sheep.

I will save discussing the ironical fact that a webpage devoted to "Cartooning and Free Speech in War Time" should have those copyright notices plastered all over the page, effectively limiting free speech (or not so effectively in your case), for another time. I guess some people draw their lines in different places than other people.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Back to #31
"We are fastly becoming a global economy...."
No, we are becoming a world-wide economy controlled by companies in the USA and to a lesser extent the European Union. There is a big difference.
"Some believe that business will take the place of governments...."
Not totally impossible IMHO.
"Business exists to provide for all in an efficient manner...."
No, business exists to provide for shareholders and company officers in an efficient manner. No-one else matters.

And #9
"Socialism is a wonderful idea. It is only as a reality that it has been disastrous. Among people of every race, color, and creed, all around the world, socialism has led to hunger in countries that used to have surplus food to export."
As opposed to capitalism, which provides dubious economic benefits to the often corrupt administrations of Third World countries at the expense of the citizens of those countries.
Also, under this system, countries (and not just Third World countries)that still have exportable products are unable to do so, because the US and the EU, those two great defenders of free trade in the rest of the world, are rampant protectionists at home for reasons of pure political expediency.

That's not meant to be a defence of socialism per se, I'm just saying that unfortunately capitalism's no better.
What is? Probably nothing.

Insert text here

No better?

Capitalism has yet to give us a Josef Stalin or a Pol Pot. And it works, with widespread starvation truly unusual in a capitalist society (unlike Communist societies, where it was all too common).

In indonesia, the US backed military killed between 500,000 to a Million people in 1965 destroying the Indonesian Communist Party and most of its suspected sympathizers in what even the New York Times (March 2, 1966) called "one of the most savage mass slaughters of modern political history." Ten years later the same Indonesian military invaded East Timor, overthrew its reformist government and killed between 100,000 to 200,000 out of a population of about 600,000. The aggression was launched the day after Ford and Kissenger concluded a visit to Indonesia. Philip Leichty, a CIA official there at the time commented in the New York Times (August 12, 1994) that General Soeharto of Indonesia was "explicitly given the green light to do what he did." Leichty noted that most of the weapons, ammunition and food used by the Indonesian military were provided by the US.

HAL,

It's funny how you come up with these things. Tell me, how did the US "back" that administration?

Come on. I want EXACT facts. Not theories, not conjecture, not bs rants, not fantasies. EXACT facts of something other than economic aid (the US gave economic aid to the USSR, North Korea, etc. It doesn't mean much) or the sale of military hardware. Come on. What EXACTLY are you claiming the US did?

By the way, ever been to Indonesia? I have. You're so far off base you should claim to be from Alpha Centauri.

Those are the facts. It's recorded history. Now you question the NY Times, one of the most subjective, mainstream news sources on Earth?! Lol! The Net bounds galore with supportive info on the subject. You're the one with nothing but hot air pal.

It's recorded history? Maybe you haven't noticed, but the NY Times is not who writes the history books. More than once they have published retractions. And of course, you haven't bothered to state any facts, not regarding US involvement. Did US troops do those killings? Did they train the Indonesian troops specifically to conduct murders? I know the answers. You think you do, but you don't have any idea and you never will as long as you sit at your computer and don't bother to get out in the world and learn how other cultures think and act.

HAL,

1. Get medical help. You need it. Seriously.

2. Once your MD feels you are up to it, travel and see something of the world. You are sadly deficient in any concept of reality.

Hal.....what have you done to help cure all the worlds evil happenings? You are good for cut and paste.....and nothing else. You just *repeat* supposed experts in everything.

What has HAL done.......????????????????????????????????

Sorry, I missed all those things when I WAS THERE.

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

>This is true...but never on a global scale of this nature
>before--that's unprecendented; where NATO is controlled by
>the US and the economies of the powerful G8 countries and
>others are in alliance.
>
>I fear what you're missing is the global corporate factor in
>all this. The power of the WTO,IMF and World Bank. Three
>quarters of the natural resouces in Asia, Africa, and Latin
>America are contolled by US and European corporations. It's
>the corporate elite that's calling the shots and running the
>show regarding American Foreign Policy. This isn't about
>politics it's about the control of the world's resources at
>the expense of the little people.
>
>Read this: http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/hal80.html


How about just doing a little research in the history books instead of spreading more, big lies. Unprecedented? Want to bet?

Go ahead AL, set your little ducks up for me. So far, as usual, you're the one with hot air...you've posted no information and said nothing.

I have a few years head start on you in terms of posting information and opinions. Which I have backed up with experience and research. You aren't worth the effort.

EPIC Files Comments on Canadian Surveillance Proposal
EPIC has submitted recommendations (PDF) on a government proposal (PDF) that would require telecommunications and Internet service providers to enable broader police surveillance of private communications. The comments expressed support for the views of Canadian civil liberties organizations. (Dec. 19)

Pentagon Makes Incomplete Response to TIA FOIA Request
After EPIC filed suit (PDF) challenging its failure to release documents about the controversial "Total Information Awareness" program, the Defense Department has provided one document – a study titled "Security with Privacy" (PDF, 840K). The study recommends more DoD research on privacy, but does not address policy issues and states that it is "not a review of Total Information Awareness." (Dec. 19)

FTC Announces National Do-Not-Call List
The FTC will establish a national DNC list that will accommodate both Internet and toll- free phone number enrollment. The new regulations also require telemarketers to transmit caller ID information, establish new rules for the use of preacquired account number information, and prohibit "abandoned" calls. For the list to operate, Congress will have to approve the levying of charges to the telemarketing industry in order to fund the program. EPIC and a coalition of consumer and civil liberties groups submitted detailed comments in favor of a DNC list. For more information, see the EPIC Telemarketing Page. (Dec. 18)

EPIC Asks Appeals Court to Reconsider Faxed Warrant
EPIC filed a response (PDF) to a petition for reconsideration in the Eighth Circuit, urging the Circuit to reconsider a November ruling (PDF) that service of a warrant on an ISP by fax complies with the "reasonableness" requirements of the Fourth Amendment. EPIC filed an amicus brief (PDF) in the case, arguing that U.S. search and seizure law has mandated officer presence at the service of a warrant since the 1700s. EPIC's latest filing argues that the November opinion didn't adequately consider the distinction between service of a warrant and execution of a warrant. For more information, see EPIC's Bach Page. (Dec. 17)

EPIC Urges DC Council to Reject General Video Surveillance
The DC Council held a hearing on the use of video surveillance in the District of Columbia at which EPIC's Executive Director testified and proposed a new draft bill (PDF) that combines the procedural safeguards of Councilmember Kathy Patterson's bill (PDF) with a second bill's (PDF) prohibition of general video surveillance. For further information, see EPIC's Video Surveillance Page and the new "DC Police Cameras" Slide Show. (Dec. 13)

EPIC Files Suit for "No-Fly List" Information
Seeking information about aviation security watchlists, EPIC has filed a lawsuit (PDF) against the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) in federal court in Washington. The legislation creating TSA authorizes the agency to maintain such lists, which reportedly have been used to interfere with the travel of political activists. Background information is available at EPIC's Air Travel Privacy Page. (Dec. 12)

EPIC Files Comments on the TCPA
EPIC and ten leading advocacy groups filed comments with the Federal Communications Commission on the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA). The groups advocated the creation of a telemarketing "do-not-call" registry and for the requirement that telemarketers send Caller ID information. For more information, see the EPIC Telemarketing Page. (Dec. 8)

http://www.epic.org/

Alright, in the link that the article came from, there is reference made to Michael Moore being interviewd on the Meria Heller show. I looked at her site, http://meria.com, and saw that she'd won some "mainstream" awards. I emailed her to ask if the story is true and got this back:

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From :
MeriaHeller@aol.com

To :
callingsusano@msn.com

Subject :
Re: Michael Moore

Date :
Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:15:51 EST

Reply Reply All Forward Delete Put in Folder...InboxSent MessagesDraftsTrash Cansaved mail Printer Friendly Version

Yes it's true, and one of many stories of similar incidents. I had Michael on the show last week, you can hear it yourself in the archives. It was 12/16/02.
Meria


"THE MERIA HELLER SHOW "- 3rd yr On The Net- #1 on Net!
check it out at : www.Meria.net
& check out www.meriaheller.com
Don't support media that lies to you! Click here!
Peace is the ONLY choice. It CAN happen if we want it.

Exercising My First Amendment Rights !
CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING!!! This electronic message contains information which may be privileged and/or confidential .This information is intended for the exclusive use of the individual(s), entity, or persons named or indicated above. Any unauthorized access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of any parts of the contents of this message/information is strictly prohibited by federal law. Any attempts to intercept this message are in violation of Title 18 U.S.C. 2511(1) of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA). All violators are subject to fines, imprisonment or civil damages, or both.

I finally got something out of this thread! I'm going to add that confidentiality warning to all my emails. They are everywhere you know.....WALDO

Walter A Robertson

hmmm, too bad you didn't get the part about government abuses.

Do you really think they picked on this guy because he shares a name with someone 95% of Americans don't even know?WALDO

Walter A Robertson

No. I think he was targeted because of what he wrote/thought.

Do you feel that "free speech" means you can threaten the president?WALDO

Walter A Robertson

What threat? Calling him "Satan", "the third Anti-Christ", "Bush-wacker"?

http://www.solidarity.com/hkcartoons/artshow/artshow.html

Spectacular forum! Knowledge abounds here. Extreme points of view, left, right, freedom emanating from concrete to the ethers. Simply amazing! The entire internet disguised as a PC help forum. Ladies and gentlemen, I bow and applaud you. If Hal9000 ambles to the left, and Al marches to the right far enough - (with their arms outspread) - I just know they will hug each other.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night,


quint

quint

I just know they will hug each other

hehe. don't count on it. Glad you like us, though . Hope to hear more from you, and all about your own unique point of view. Is that you in the picture or Jack Palance? Merry Christmas to you, as well.

Thats Robert Shaw, in a scene from "Jaws".. his name in the movie was Quint.

"Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes."

Oh, yeah! Thanks. I thought that face looked familiar. Don't you think Shaw and Palance have a similar something? Or is just me? Isn't Shaw dead? God, I'm starting to sound like my dad (to my mother) - "Er, Mary, is he dead yet?"

I believe they are both dead. I don't think they look at all similar, but they were both great actors.

>Spectacular forum! Knowledge abounds here. Extreme points of
>view, left, right, freedom emanating from concrete to the
>ethers. Simply amazing! The entire internet disguised as a
>PC help forum. Ladies and gentlemen, I bow and applaud you.
>If Hal9000 ambles to the left, and Al marches to the right
>far enough - (with their arms outspread) - I just know they
>will hug each other.
>
They will have to call on the renowned Spiritual Therapist recommended by Freespirit. I'm certain she has the answers to all of our problems.










http://www.bobbalogh.com/

They will have to call on the renowned Spiritual Therapist recommended by Freespirit

Who would that be? Doctoreddiechakra? He's dead, I heard. Strangled by JoeP, with an orange scarf.

Balo, you seem to have taken a tone with me, like you don't like me. Have I done something, other than express my personal views, to offend you? Not that anybody has to like anyone, around here, but I'm just curious.

>
>Balo, you seem to have taken a tone with me, like you don't
>like me. Have I done something, other than express my
>personal views, to offend you? Not that anybody has to like
>anyone, around here, but I'm just curious.

No tone meant. Just being cute since you recommemded a site that had the following:

Meria is the founder of "The Universal Wheel (tm)", Phoenix, Arizona, a lifestyle and philosophy based on our interconnectedness to all living things. Meria supports life in all forms and peace at all cost. Meria is also a fine watercolorist, having a one woman show in Soho, NYC in 1988 and listed in the Encyclopedia of Living Artists in America. Meria is a wonderfully gifted Spiritual Therapist (reader), Usui Reiki Master, Natural Healer and much more.

Not exactly an expert on the problems we have been discussing but a wonderfully gifted Spiritual Therapist. So, I guess Meria Heller is the selected "mainstream" source. Let me know if I misrepresented.

Again, no tone nor dislike intended.











http://www.bobbalogh.com/

Balo, I don't think someone has to be inside the beltway, or working for the corporate owned mainstream media, in order to shed light on an issue. Where do you ever see old fashioned, investigative journalism, in the mainstream press, anymore? When a reporter wants information on the administration, they go to Ari Fliescher. If they want something on the State Department, they go to some official mouthpiece. That is lousy journalism. Remember how journalists hounded Richard Jewell? I don't remember any of them showing any presumption of innocence. How professional is that? As a result, Jewell won a lawsuit against one of the major media outlets. I was just reading an article, which I'll link here, crediting the internet for making a big deal out of the Trent Lott debacle. The mainstrem press was doing nothing with that story. A reporter from The New York Times makes that statement in the article. Shit, they are the gods of the mainstream media. This talkshow host, Meria - why should she have have any less credibility than someone who gets all of their information from White House press conferences? I can get that watching C-Span, and with less spin. I'll bet that as Hitler rose to power, there were voices speaking about what could come. I'll bet many were written off as over-reacting, paranoid, and spreading rumors. It's those little voices, in communities all over, that go ignored in the mainstream media. Talk radio and the internet are providing another outlet for information. Information that a few giant corporations have had a lock on. Have you ever flipped from ABC to NBC to CBS and heard anything substantially different? I contend it's merely a difference in style, not content. If Meria is an artist and spiritual, how do you know she's not smart and discerning? Some of the most important voices in history were artists. Hell, we even had an actor become president.

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,56978,00.html

Well, the alternatives that we've been seeing posted sure don't qualify as "investigative journalism". Tenuous strings of nonsense pretending to be logic don't make it, and neither does "hounding" someone. There is good investigative journalism being done. My guess is you refuse to admit that because it doesn't reflect what you want to believe.

"The day before George W. Bush became president, a CNN anchor interviewed the incoming White House chief of staff and then bade him farewell. "All right, Andy Card," said Judy Woodruff, "we look forward to working with you, to covering your administration."

If major news outlets were committed to independent journalism, Woodruff's statement on national television January 19 would have caused quite a media stir. But it was just another sign of media coziness with power brokers in Washington. Leading journalists and spinners in high places are accustomed to mutual reliance. That's good for the professional advancement of all concerned..."

http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/hal35.html

I recommend you enroll in a logic course. Your flaws are showing. LMAO

It's not necessary or healthy to want everyone to like you!

I agree, Hal. I brought that up because I thought his response was getting off the topic, or personal. I wanted to know the reason. It seems Balo doesn't cotton to the phrase "wonderfully gifted Spiritual Therapist" and/or thinks that's my bag. That's fine - it is. We are safe, we are safe.

"Cities across the country are passing resolutions to counteract new Federal snooping legislation. Oakland, California, is now the 20th city to pass a resolution barring employees, including librarians and policemen, from collaborating with federal officials who try to use their new power to investigate residents."

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2234

Good news, as far as I'm concerned. Just as the Constitution intended.

When people are convinced that the self is untrustworthy, for whatever reasons, or that the universe is not safe, then instead of luxuriating in the use of their abilities, exploring the physical and mental environments, they begin to pull in their realities - to contract their abilities, to overcontrol their envoronments. They become frightened people - and frightened people do not want freedom, mental or physical. They want shelter, a definate set of rules. They want to be told what is good and bad. They lean toward compulsive behavior patterns. They seek out leaders - political, scientific, or religious - who will order their lives for them.

hmmm, that would be the New World Order, I guess.

That is an excellent thought! One of the best explanations on this subject I've read in a long time--every word of it true. I've saved it!

Did you write that?

Did you write that?

Wish I could take the credit. An old friend said it. A friend of yours, too.

LOL!! That's great. I've always liked that guy.

You could be describing chidren here, and there is nothing more child-like than unreasoning adults. As parents, we exert mind control over our children to influence them in our direction. All leaders do the same. As adults, we can make the choice to follow or not. Remember, we elect our leaders here in the U.S., others around the globe do not have this luxury. We have the ability to change that which we do not like. While we are not perfect, ours is the best system in place on earth. Worry about mind control when forums like this are declared illegal.

This mind control thing is a little too far out for me. I can't see that happening. It is possible that my world is yet still too small for me to see all. But I am not likely to lose sleep over something that I believe cannot happen in our society.

Free elections? LOL! To choose from whom? From between two parties where there's virtually no difference between Republicans and Democrats and whose members are controlled by the American ruling elite, bought and paid for by powerful corporations.

You've just demonstrated much of the mind control I'm referring to--the fact that you think you actually have a choice and that by exercising that non-choice you have some control over choosing who leads you. The reality is whomever you choose is controlled by the same people. You live within the myth of freedom, believing you are free all the while claiming "This mind control thing is a little too far out for me. I can't see that happening."

Lol! They've got you pal.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate." -- Noam Chomsky

Hal9000, you've saddened me. I guess I mistakenly thought that we Americans actually were the government. I really and truly thought that we voted in order to possibly make changes for the good of all. I've been wrong before; oh well. But you make me feel like one of those moving targets at a "shooting gallery". I will not ever give up, though.

You should write a book, I'd be interested to know how it would be classified.

Have spent several days and nights reading many, many posts...of your's and others. This forum fascinates me. It's value could never be overstated. Thank you all.

May the true "Spirit of Christmas" fill everyone's life,

quint

quint

quint,

If we are the government then anything a government does to an individual is not only just but also voluntary. If the government throws a man in jail for dissent then he is doing it to himself. And since any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered they must have committed suicide since they were the government which was democratically chosen.

As usual, your logic is flawed HAL. Suggest you start reducing your statements to equations and proving them before you post them.

Read John Locke. Pay attention. You might just learn something.

BTW Quint,

In 1918 when they put Eugene Debbs and a 1000 other people in jail for speaking out against the war, they violated their First Amendment right to free speech. To get around that they amended the First Amendment. There's no buts: Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech. It's the job of the Supreme Court to see if congress has violated the First Amendment and they failed in their job.

Eugene Debbs and those 1000 other people didn't throw themselves in jail.