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scaramoucheMon Mar-31-03 06:41 AM
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"Will the hatred for America grow?"
Mon Mar-31-03 06:43 AM

  

          

Channel-Surfing Carnage of War, Saudis' Anger At U.S. Grows
With Protests Prohibited, Emotions Flare in Private


By Carol Morello
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 30, 2003; Page A26


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, March 29 -- The bloodied bodies in morgues and lifeless hands sticking out from the rubble of flattened buildings are distant from the comfort of Leila and Mohammed's den, yet the Gold Star television set there makes them seem close and immediate.

Every night before snacks laid out by a maid on the marble coffee table, the couple channel-surfs from CNN to al-Jazeera to Abu Dhabi television, Leila's anger bubbling over while Mohammed calmly tries to think up a rational way for the carnage to end.

"I have a beautiful home, beautiful kids, a beautiful husband," says Leila, a svelte woman in her mid-forties whose fitness is evident in her jeans, stiletto heels and a tight pink sweater. "I feel secure. But these people have no security."

The war in Iraq so infuriates Leila, who is reading a book on anger management, that she sometimes fantasizes about becoming a suicide bomber.

"America is so unfair it makes people frustrated and they want to kill every American in the street," she says, standing up from her chair, where she had been smoking a cigarette and gesturing with both hands. "If America wants to step over everybody, then we will fight. I will kill Americans in the street."

Rich and poor, young and old, Saudis are seething over the war in Iraq. Many feel connections to the people across the border, sharing names with Iraqi tribes. It is virtually impossible to find a Saudi who has even a vaguely sympathetic word to say about American intentions.

In other Arab countries, protesters are taking to the streets. Here such expressions are prohibited, but the anger is no less strong. It is just hidden, as people sit at home watching TV and engaging in conversations about civilian casualties and American hubris.

Leila, a physician, and Mohammed, a businessman who owns an export-import company, often squabble over the war. After agreeing to let a reporter watch television with them if their last name was not published, they all but ignore the gory images on their television to debate the war's meaning and impact.

As White House press secretary Ari Fleischer appears on the television screen, Mohammed says the United States is throwing its weight around.

"The biggest country in the world is the United States, and they have to keep it that way," he says, leaning forward on the leather ottoman where he is perched wearing a white thobe, the traditional floor-length shirtdress. "It's like when a child gets out of order and you slap it on the butt, that's the way they look at things.

"This war is about two things," he says. "National security is one. But the real reason is the economy, which in the U.S. has been suffering for three years. Wall Street is down, and they have to find a solution. The United States plans to get back every cent it will spend by selling the oil."

Unlike most Saudis, Leila openly admires Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, now more than ever as his paramilitary forces are fighting the American "invaders."

"I would prefer to have someone like Saddam rule all the Arab world than have America here," she says. "If Saddam invaded Saudi Arabia, I would open my heart and hands for him. He is protecting his land."

Mohammed wishes the Iraqi president would declare victory and step down for the sake of his people, though he deems Hussein too egomaniacal for that.

"If he said, 'I give up my neck to save my people. Remember who is Saddam Hussein, and I leave proudly,' he would be a hero for the whole world," Mohammed says.

Seamlessly, the conversation veers to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. In the minds of many Saudis, the Palestinian struggle and the war in Iraq are one.

"I don't understand why Israel can have nuclear weapons and Saddam Hussein cannot," Leila says.

Mohammed believes the United States should exert pressure on Israel if it hopes to mend the ill will engendered by the war in Iraq.

"The only way out to start on a new page with the Arab world is to solve it," he says. "It's like salt on an open wound. Anything the U.S. wants to do, the Arabs connect it. The extremists will have no skewers if justice will be brought to the table. Solve the Palestinian problem, and 50 percent of all the problems in the region will be solved."

On TV, the camera zooms in for a close-up of a young man pulled from a storage cabinet in the morgue. Someone has pulled back the blood-soaked blanket covering his body, showing open wounds on his face and his chest.

"The Iraqis did well," Mohammed says of the fighting. "They did better than expected. But Baghdad will be down very soon."

Leila tells him he is dreaming. "Bush will win, but after a lot of people die," she says. "Then Bush will resign because the people won't let him continue. They don't trust him. Americans are expensive. Not like Arabs. Our blood is cheap."

Mohammed feels a twinge of sympathy for the American prisoners and casualties he has seen, "because we are all human beings."

Not Leila.

"Not at all," she says curtly. "Because they deserve it."

Rising from her chair again, Leila's voice trembles. "Maybe you will find one day I will blow myself up," she says. "Bush should listen to this message: If you continue in this war, everyone in the Islamic world, out of frustration, everyone will become a suicide bomber and terrorist to show you are wrong. Stop it! Human beings have more value than money, and you can't build up your economy on the blood of people."

Sitting down to regain her composure, Leila takes pains to note that she shoos the ants into the garden rather than step on them.

The evening over, Leila and Mohammed summon their driver to take their visitor home. They stand by the front gate with their arms wrapped around each other, apologizing if they have given offense and smiling as they wave goodbye.















...................................................................

The war is, but one week old. The allies have made good progress but the war has not turned out, thus far, as the Pentagon planners believed it would.
The Iraqi army has yet to surrender in droves, people have yet to greet the US and Great Britain as Liberators. In fact the Iraqis are behaving, as people of any Country would, angry as hell that they are being invaded.
Everyday we are bombarded with photographs and images of women and children being killed, maimed and displaced from their homes.
From what I read, hear and see the US is on its way to becoming the most hated nation on this earth and Bush, is being compared to Hitler, in some of the World Press.
Yet, the most difficult part of the Campaign is yet to come namely the capture of Baghdad.
Was this war a major miscalculation by GWB and his cohorts? Will the reconstruction of Iraq be impossible? Has the region forever been destabilized? Will this war prove to be George Bush's Waterloo?

What I think does not matter and this Post is not meant to give my view but a week has passed, and, putting aside Pariotism what do YOU think?


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Will the hatred for America grow?
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Will the Sun come up tomorrow?
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bkoenig1Mon Mar-31-03 08:25 AM
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#1. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

I think since most of the 9-11 terrorists were Saudi's, they better keep their mouths shut. They COULD be next.

Bill K.



  

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BrendaCanadaMon Mar-31-03 08:38 AM
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#2. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to bkoenig1 (Reply # 1)


          

I have to admit the backlash is unsettling, all over the world. What on earth are they thinking??? In a UK forum I visit they are so violently opposed to Bush it is incredible (like some here)....all of them in the forum. I grew tired of their paranoia.
They feel Blair is Bush's puppet. I don't get it...never will.





There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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EllergreenMon Mar-31-03 06:13 PM
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#9. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to BrendaCanada (Reply # 2)


  

          

Brenda,
apropos Blair being Bushs' puppet - It's always Blair travelling to the U.S.A. see the President for 'crisis' talks. Does the President know where the U.K. (His staunchest ally) is??
Methinks Blair is Bushs' roving ambassador!

  

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golouisMon Mar-31-03 06:47 PM
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#10. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Ellergreen (Reply # 9)


          

Why do you say that? Bush crossed the Atlantic to meet Blair in the Azores just before the war started.

Louis

  

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EllergreenTue Apr-01-03 03:05 AM
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#12. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to golouis (Reply # 10)


  

          

Like the Azores is the U.K.?
He met Blair AND the Spanish P.M. in an imitation of the Yalta conference (Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin).
Now, irrepective of the politics of those three, they would be Giants among todays pygmies!

  

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golouisMon Mar-31-03 10:56 AM
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#6. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to bkoenig1 (Reply # 1)


          

The following article appearing in Monday's on-line Jerusalem Post edition attempts to put the picture in perspective.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1049012182916

"LETTER FROM WASHINGTON: by Barry Rubin

"Our story to date: In one week of fighting, allied troops occupied most of Iraq, including a key oilfield and a main port, and have come close to capturing its second-largest city at the cost of approximately 25 killed in combat and fewer than 10 taken prisoner. At the same time, they killed hundreds of Iraqi soldiers, took more than 4,000 prisoners, and let about 15,000 Iraqis desert and go home.

"For most of this period, the allied forces advanced as fast as their vehicles would carry them. Baghdad has been encircled.
Many people are trying to portray this as a defeat.

"At the same time, Saddam Hussein, mistrusting his own soldiers, kept almost all of them around Baghdad and out of the fighting. Other than a couple of divisions he sacrificed in the South, he dispatched fewer than 2,000 irregulars who brutalized Iraqis and suffered heavy losses when they attacked.

"Many people are trying to portray this as a victory and proof that Iraqis support their government out of nationalist sentiment.
On two occasions, out of many hundreds of cruise missiles fired, US explosives may have hit civilians. Allied forces risked their own lives to reduce casualties among Iraqis. Sometimes soldiers lost their lives as they tried to accept the surrender of Iraqi soldiers who then opened fire on them.

"Many people are trying to portray this as proof of American brutality.

"While the preceding paragraphs may be framed in a sarcastic fashion, they are also a very accurate summary of what has happened. "


Those who want to bash America will do so without any connection to real facts.

Louis

  

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observerMon Mar-31-03 12:25 PM
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#7. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to golouis (Reply # 6)


          

According to the British Basra is nowhere near under control.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12784471&method=full&siteid=50143

And this is a pretty grim article, war f**king sucks. http://162.42.211.226/article2479.htm

  

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golouisMon Mar-31-03 01:25 PM
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#8. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 7)


          

What the Mirror article clearly says (by ommission) is that the Iraqis also are not in control of Basra.

The same goes for the collapse of Iraqi control of Nasiriyah.

The civilians in both towns (and many others in southern Iraq) need food and water. Their own authorities no longer provide for them and the Allies are trying to get humanitarian aid in. The Iraqi forces and irregulars are stopping this as well as shooting at some groups of their own people trying to flee to safety.

War is never fun and causes suffering. Unfortunately the price of non-action may be even more suffering.

Louis

  

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ShellyMon Mar-31-03 08:50 AM
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#3. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

I think it is unrealistic to think we will ever have any real friends among the fundamentalist Muslim societies. They will fear our power and covet our trade, that is all we can expect. As far as the current administration is concerned, they could not possibly have handled the situation more clumsily than they did.

Shelly

  

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AlMon Mar-31-03 10:20 AM
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#4. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

Is being liked an issue?

A good leader need not be liked. A good leader does need to be respected. We shall see what shall happen, but I doubt that anyone will hate us after this that didn't hate us before it. It'll just be more visible. Others that didn't respect us, will respect us, if only because they will realize that the United States will use its might if necessary.

Many Arabs have a culture that builds on hate. Thousands of years of hating someone, fighting someone. The US is simply the biggest target. It isn't anything new. One hundred years ago it was the British. Before that it was the Russians. Before that it was the Infidels. Before that it was the Romans.

When the people of the area decide to move into the 21st century instead of continuing to live in the 15th, then things will change. That will require examples. Maybe Iraq and Iran can be those examples.



  

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tpikdaveMon Mar-31-03 10:54 AM
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#5. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 4)


          

Righto.. If it weren't for oil (that western engineers found) these camel jockeys would still be scratching for a living. Most Saudis have had a good life recently, handed to them on a platter of petroleum products. Then they sit around and bitch. A bunch of ungrateful tent-trash. All that it will take to make them revert to the non-entities that they were is an alternate source of energy.

  

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scaramoucheMon Mar-31-03 08:59 PM
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#11. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 4)
Mon Mar-31-03 09:03 PM

  

          

>Is being liked an issue?
>

I think its an issue with the US and psychologically everyone
...................................................................

>A good leader need not be liked. A good leader does need to
>be respected. We shall see what shall happen, but I doubt
>that anyone will hate us after this that didn't hate us
>before it. It'll just be more visible. Others that didn't
>respect us, will respect us, if only because they will
>realize that the United States will use its might if
>necessary.
>

I agree with the first line, but IMO Bush is not a smart leader. "Good" I can't comment but if you mean "good" as in efficient then I beg to differ. I really doubt that Bush has much respect among the majority of World Leaders. Most people doubt his intellectual capabilities. I really dont think he has a grasp of World politics. As a person I like the guy but I think he's way over his head and his closest advisers appear too warlike for my liking.
You are also talking about the US imposing its will on other nations through force. I doubt that strategy will work for very long.
...............................................................


>Many Arabs have a culture that builds on hate. Thousands of
>years of hating someone, fighting someone. The US is simply
>the biggest target. It isn't anything new. One hundred years
>ago it was the British. Before that it was the Russians.
>Before that it was the Infidels. Before that it was the
>Romans.
>When the people of the area decide to move into the 21st
>century instead of continuing to live in the 15th, then
>things will change. That will require examples. Maybe Iraq
>and Iran can be those examples.

The West has no right to impose their culture and values on other nations. The US means well but they usually end up by replacing one regime with another worse one as long as it suits their purpose, at the time.
................................................................

The aftermath of this war is very simple. The US and allies will remove Saddam Hussein but create 100 more Osama Bin Ladens ready and willing to attack anything American. Iraq will never be the same. There is no acceptable successor and the US will have to stay there for years to keep the peace at enormous cost in lives and money.

I am torn between my emotions. I remember another War that ended in disaster for me and my family, and therefore can sympathize with the Iraqi people. The US will conquer, leave when public opinion demands, and the World is left with a human disaster of monumental proportions. I can almost guarantee that is what will happen. You must remember that US Presidents rule by Public Polls. If Polls go down the US gets out.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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AlTue Apr-01-03 05:41 AM
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#13. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 11)


  

          

Scar,

Do you think that Vietnam has lost its culture?

28 years of Communist rule. 15 years of open markets. But Vietnam is still Vietnam.

Now, you seem to be saying that it is OK for people to have a culture in which they hate and kill others for their differences in belief. So, should we not have interfered with the massacres in Kosovo and Serbia? Should we ignore what happened in Rwanda? Should we turn our back on the Vietnamese treatment of the Dega? Because we might be accused of forcing our culture on them?

No one is suggesting that Iraq, etc. lose their culture, or adopt America's. However, suggesting that those cultures move into the modern world and recognize that they must live with and accept other cultures isn't unreasonable.

I disagree with you on both President Bush, and on the results of this war. Already it is fairly obvious that the violent rhetoric against the United States is reducing, not increasing. Only North Korea WANTS to be on the radar screen now.



  

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scaramoucheTue Apr-01-03 06:24 AM
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#14. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 13)


  

          

I don't know Al, quite honestly I'm tired of war. All I can say the Coalition had better find Weapons of Mass Destruction or this war is illegal. The mandate was never regime change.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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observerTue Apr-01-03 08:03 PM
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#28. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 14)
Tue Apr-01-03 11:08 PM

          

Ya, although we are all led to believe that they will set up a democracy and leave, what are the chances that permanent military bases will be set up in Iraq, this is what Osama complained about most, permanent bases in Saudi Arabia. This is the real goal, extension of power. The current state-run oil industry will be dismantled and replaced with private (American) companies, profits from Iraqi oil will flow offshore to Bush's oil buddies. Think what you want, your boys and girls are dying for reasons other than those you are being told.

  

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AlWed Apr-02-03 03:56 AM
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#32. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 28)


  

          

Grasping for straws, aren't you? The oil argument doesn't hold up. Never has. Nor does the military base bit. The only bases the US has that resemble permanent bases in the Middle East are in Turkey. Won't change, either. We neither need or want permanent military posts in Iraq, Kuwait, Quatar or Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden just said whatever was appropriate to get people to listen to him, and give him power over them. Truth had nothing to do with it.



  

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observerWed Apr-02-03 06:49 PM
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#35. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 32)


          

You are full of it on this military bases thing and you know it, recheck " Rebuilding America's Defences - Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century"

  

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AlThu Apr-03-03 10:46 PM
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#48. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 35)


  

          

A paper written to discuss one view and you think it makes anything fact?

Let me guess, you think Michael Moore actually filmed a documentary, don't you?



  

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KevinRTue Apr-01-03 07:35 AM
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#17. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 11)


          


Scaramouche,

I agree with your sentiment. My fear is that this whole affair is going to backfire and start and even bigger backlash against the Western World. IMHO it is a possibility.

I prefer to get to the root of the problem and solve it from that point. The fact is that the Middle East (save Israel) do not like the US at all. Unfortunately, this does not have to be. I've heard that the US was liked during the Carter days. This speaks volumes, to me, about the current regime in power in Washington. I know it is much more complex than that, but the bottom line is that a much different methodology has to be realized in order to gain the confidence and the support of the people of IRAQ and the people of the Middle East.

My opinion...

Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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AlTue Apr-01-03 08:43 AM
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#18. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 17)


  

          

Liked when we paid the highest price for oil ever and had one of our worst Presidents..

Yep, says a lot...



  

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KevinRTue Apr-01-03 10:14 AM
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#19. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 18)


          


I only call them as I hear them , Al.

Sarcasm will get you everywhere here, as I have noted. So be it... wallow in it, if that's where you get you jollies.


Pentium 2.4 512, Win XP SP2, ATI A-I-W 9800, Intel M/B, On-Board Audio

  

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nightlyreaderTue Apr-01-03 10:27 AM
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#20. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 19)


          

>
>I only call them as I hear them , Al.
>
>Sarcasm will get you everywhere here, as I have noted. So
>be it... wallow in it, if that's where you get you jollies.

So, I guess you weren't around during the Carter years?

Nightly Reader

  

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KevinRTue Apr-01-03 04:48 PM
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#24. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 20)


          


Jimmy Carter happens to be one of the Americans I respect the most. I was very much "around" during those years.

I'd like to ask for the point of your question?

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nightlyreaderTue Apr-01-03 07:28 PM
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#27. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 24)


          

>
>Jimmy Carter happens to be one of the Americans I respect
>the most. I was very much "around" during those years.
>
>I'd like to ask for the point of your question?

IMO, Carter is a decent man, who as a person I respect, but as the leader of the U.S., he was over his head. Maybe he was too honest and decent for the job

Nightly Reader

  

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MykTue Apr-01-03 11:55 AM
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#23. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 17)
Tue Apr-01-03 11:58 AM

  

          

they liked Carter it was because they could push him around. Remember the Iran hostage deal? They timed the release to go along with him leaving office and Reagan coming into office.

Sometimes it's better to be feared than loved.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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KevinRTue Apr-01-03 04:51 PM
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#25. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Myk (Reply # 23)


          


Perhaps I like Carter because he is a peacemaker and, being Canadian, I tend heavily towards that attitude.

I have a question... is there any president that Americans have liked. No matter who I speak about these days, there is more criticism than praise... I find it bizarre...

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MykTue Apr-01-03 05:21 PM
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#26. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 25)


  

          

"is there any president that Americans have liked"

Probably not. Not in recent history at least. Look at the favorite presidents thread. Many people liked FDR, I think he is responsible for many of this country's ills today. I hated Reagan when he was in office/I was younger, although now I can praise him for the good he did but that is only with hindsight, I still disagree with much of what he did.

I liked Carter for the most part when he was in office, but in hindsight he did this country a lot of harm and gave the world the impression they could push us around.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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rhbowlerTue Apr-01-03 08:13 PM
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#29. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 25)


  

          

"I have a question... is there any president that Americans
>have liked. No matter who I speak about these days, there
>is more criticism than praise... I find it bizarre... "


Ronald Reagan was elected by the largest margin in history for his second term, i forget the exact numbers, but i seem to remember he lost maybe 1 or 2 states. I'd say he must have been liked and respected both. He was also feared as a "cowboy" by the arab world, which by my way of thinking is a good thing. They knew if they got out of line the new "sherrif in town" wouldn't hesitate to react.


RussH






  

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observerTue Apr-01-03 08:26 PM
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#30. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 29)


          

Yes, because Reagan failed to back a resolution to help the Kurds after the gassing incident, he preferred to keep helping Saddam. Of course the whole Iran-Contra thing was going on at the same time. Sorry, he was not feared by the Arabs, he was loved, they got money and arms.

  

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AlWed Apr-02-03 03:58 AM
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#33. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 30)


  

          

I'm sure you're an expert on the attitudes of Arabs, aren't you? How much time have you spent in the Middle-East?



  

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observerWed Apr-02-03 06:33 PM
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#34. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 33)


          

Sorry Al, are you disputing what I said or just trying to distract people from thinking about it by attacking me?

  

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KevinRWed Apr-02-03 08:01 PM
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#36. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 34)


          


Sorry observer...

You have to have experienced everything, been everywhere, seen all, felt all, heard all...

... before you can comment on anything here.

I'm being sarcastic, but that is the semtiment I get whenever I try to post something.

There are only a few "EXPERTS" here. We know who they think they are. I've been here for only a short period and I can even see that. And that makes for very limited discussions.

My opinion, but I would suggest that everyone open their minds a bit here and allow others opinions to be aired and, not only that, but CONSIDER the possibility that it may have some creedence. It is well know that "Experts" really do think they have nothing to learn.

Like I said... my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't make it wrong...

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nightlyreaderWed Apr-02-03 08:51 PM
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#37. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 36)


          

There are more "been there, done that" people here than you realize. They know what they've done, where they've been and really don't find the need to brag about it. But, if you start blowing smoke, you will be called on it.

Nightly Reader

  

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PointmanWed Apr-02-03 08:54 PM
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#38. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 36)


          

No one said knowledge was a prerequisite for having an opinion, but don't you value opinions based on facts, first hand experience or proven data over those based on feelings or unproven allegations?

Pointman

  

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ShellyWed Apr-02-03 11:45 PM
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#40. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 36)


  

          

>There are only a few "EXPERTS" here. We know who they think
>they are. I've been here for only a short period and I can
>even see that. And that makes for very limited discussions.
>
>My opinion, but I would suggest that everyone open their
>minds a bit here and allow others opinions to be aired and,
>not only that, but CONSIDER the possibility that it may have
>some creedence. It is well know that "Experts" really do
>think they have nothing to learn.


What there are here are not "experts", though many of us are recognized experts in our fields, there are here intelligent people with opinions based on a wealth of experience and a lot of study.

You, or anyone, is free to take any position on any issue, but you damned sure better be prepared to back it up with more than shallow jingoistic pablum when that position is challenged. If you want our respect you will have to earn it. We don't need lectures from children or the pontification of the naive. If you are not able to support your ideas, don't jump into the discussion in the first place. You will be confronted by those who don't agree with you.

Many of us have seen more of the world than we wanted to. Have seen more pure horror and hopelessness than you can begin to imagine without having been there. Perhaps you are the ones who need to open your minds and learn. I'm fed up with people who whine when they can't support their beliefs.


Shelly

  

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KevinRThu Apr-03-03 12:04 AM
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#41. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 40)


          


... no pablum, sir...

But I must say that I am not very impressed with comments like...

"Many of us have seen more of the world than we wanted to..."
"I'm fed up with people who whine when they can't support their beliefs..."

But my opinion still stands... I say you are "experts", specifically because you are not open to ideas which are different from your own. That is the way it looks to me as I read more and more of these discourses. The name calling, the sarcasm... hmphhh.

My opinion, that's all.

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AlThu Apr-03-03 10:50 PM
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#49. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to KevinR (Reply # 41)


  

          

Being open to idiocy is not especially conducive to anything. Different ideas that can be supported we are open to. Mindless babble? Sorry, not a chance.



  

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rhbowlerThu Apr-03-03 03:08 AM
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#42. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 30)


  

          

>Yes, because Reagan failed to back a resolution to help the
>Kurds after the gassing incident, he preferred to keep
>helping Saddam. Of course the whole Iran-Contra thing was
>going on at the same time. Sorry, he was not feared by the
>Arabs, he was loved, they got money and arms.


My point was in answering the qustion about was there ever a pres that the people liked, and responded about the way in which Reagan was re elected. As far as your stating that indeed he was not feared, or respected eiher one, by the Arabs, show me the information, the sites, the articles that back your "theory " up. Or is this just your own "inside information"? If you have such an intimate knowledge of the inner thoughts of the Arab world, do tell us where Saddam and Usama are, and we'll end this war post haste.


RussH






  

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observerThu Apr-03-03 06:19 AM
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#43. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 29)


          

You made the initial assertion that "he was also feared as a 'cowboy' by the arab world". I said that he supplied intel and military marerials to Saddam, I'm not quite sure how this would scare Iraq, seemed like a mighty friendly handshake with Rummy. Reagan also removed Iraq from the list of nations supporting terrorism. He had Iran so scared that they accepted weapons from him.

I think you are the one that needs to back up your assertions in light of the facts of the time.

  

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rhbowlerThu Apr-03-03 07:16 AM
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#45. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 43)


  

          

What facts do you refer to, that's what i am asking you to provide.


RussH






  

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rhbowlerThu Apr-03-03 09:16 PM
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#47. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 45)
Thu Apr-03-03 09:16 PM

  

          

By your lack of any kind of response, and total ignoring of my request for your facts, i will assume this is just your opinion, and not backed up by any sort of facts at all. That is, of course fine, however, if you are gong to represent it as fact, be prepared to provide them, or, state them as your opinion.


RussH






  

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observerThu Apr-03-03 11:05 PM
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#51. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 47)
Thu Apr-03-03 11:06 PM

          

Here is an article that provides sources at the end, you can check them for yourself.

Arming Iraq and the Path to War, by John King

2003-03-31 | This is an accurate chronology of United States' involvement in the arming of Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war. It is a powerful indictment of the current bush administration attempt to sell war as a component of his war on terrorism. It reveals our ambitions in Iraq to be just another chapter in the attempt to regain a foothold in the Mideast following the fall of the Shah of Iran.

A crisis always has a history, and the current crisis with Iraq is no exception. Below are some relevant dates.

September 1980. Iraq invades Iran. The beginning of the Iraq-Iran war. (8)

February 1982. Despite objections from Congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries. (1)

December 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq. (9)

1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments. (4)

November 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. (1) (15)

November 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the U.S. government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other
industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. (14)

October 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act. (16)

November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. (1)

December 20 1983. Donald Rumsfeld, then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support. (1) (15)

July 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. (19)

January 14 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application. (2)

March 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the U.S. becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. (10)

May 1986. The U.S. Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. (3)

May 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. (7)

March 1987. President Reagan bows to the findings of the Tower Commission admitting the sale of arms to Iran in exchange for hostages. Oliver North uses the profits from the sale to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua. (17)

Late 1987. The Iraqi Air Force begins using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq. (1)

February 1988. Saddam Hussein begins the "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds of northern Iraq. The Iraq regime used chemical weapons against the Kurds killing over 100,000 civilians and destroying over 1,200 Kurdish villages. (8)

April 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. (7)

August 1988. Four major battles were fought from April to August 1988, in which the Iraqis massively and effectively used chemical weapons to defeat the Iranians. Nerve gas and blister agents such as mustard gas are used. By this time the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency is heavily involved with Saddam Hussein in battle plan assistance, intelligence gathering and post battle debriefing. In the last major battle with of the war, 65,000 Iranians are killed, many with poison gas. Use of chemical weapons in war is in violation of the Geneva accords of 1925. (6) (13)

August 1988. Iraq and Iran declare a cease fire. (8)

August 1988. Five days after the cease fire Saddam Hussein sends his planes and helicopters to northern Iraq to begin massive chemical attacks against the Kurds. (8)

September 1988. U.S. Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade anthrax and botulinum to Iraq. (7)

September 1988. Richard Murphy, Assistant Secretary of State: "The US-Iraqi relationship is... important to our long-term political and economic objectives." (15)

December 1988. Dow chemical sells $1.5 million in pesticides to Iraq despite knowledge that these would be used in chemical weapons. (1)

July 25, 1990. U.S. Ambassador to Baghdad meets with Hussein to assure him that President Bush "wanted better and deeper relations." Many believe this visit was a trap set for Hussein. A month later Hussein invaded Kuwait thinking the U.S. would not respond. (12)

August 1990. Iraq invades Kuwait. The precursor to the Gulf War. (8)

July 1991. The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80's using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians. (11)

August 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta's branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but U.S. officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime. (14)

June 1992. Ted Koppel of ABC Nightline reports: "It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush, Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam's Iraq into ." (5)

July 1992. "The Bush administration deliberately, not inadvertently, helped to arm Iraq by allowing U.S. technology to be shipped to Iraqi military and to Iraqi defense factories... Throughout the course of the Bush administration, U.S. and foreign firms were granted export licenses to ship U.S. technology directly to Iraqi weapons facilities despite ample evidence showing that these factories were producing weapons." Representative Henry Gonzalez, Texas, testimony before the House. (18)

February 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large U.S. shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against U.S. troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome. (7)

August 2002. "The use of gas on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern... We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose." Colonel Walter Lang, former senior U.S. Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times. (4)

This chronology of the United States' sordid involvement in the arming of Iraq can be summarized in this way: the United States used methods both legal and illegal to help build Saddam's army into the most powerful army in the Mideast outside of Israel. The U.S. supplied chemical and biological agents and technology to Iraq when it knew Iraq was using chemical weapons against the Iranians. The U.S. supplied the materials and technology for these weapons of mass destruction to Iraq at a time when it was known that Saddam was using this technology to kill his Kurdish citizens. The United States supplied intelligence and battle planning information to Iraq when those battle plans included the use of cyanide, mustard gas and nerve agents. The United States blocked U.N. censure of Iraq's use of chemical weapons. The United States did not act alone in this effort. The Soviet Union was the largest weapons supplier, but England, France and Germany were also involved in the shipment of arms and technology.

So what do these events have to do with the current conflict?

Just this: If we do go to war with Iraq, it is important to know why! War will not really be about terrorism! Twenty years ago the United States threw its support behind Saddam Hussein in a geopolitical bid for enhanced access to oil. The trajectory given him by our support lead directly to the Gulf War and to the current crises. War, after all, will be about a history of misdeeds and miscalculations. And war will not be about morality. War will be about cynicism, deceit and a thirst for oil that knows no boundaries.

John King
Long Prairie, MN, USA.

(ED. Note: Although this article was written before the attack began, the analysis still rings true.)

Sources

1. Washingtonpost.com. December 30, 2002
2. Jonathan Broder. Nuclear times, Winter 1990-91
3. Kurt Nimno. AlterNet. September 23, 2002
4. Newyorktimes.com. August 29, 2002
5. ABC Nightline. June 9, 1992
6. Counter Punch, October 10, 2002
7. Riegle Report: Dual Use Exports. Senate Committee on Banking. May 25, 1994
8. Timeline: A walk Through Iraq's History. U.S. Department of State
9. Doing Business: The Arming of Iraq. Daniel Robichear
10. Glen Rangwala. Labor Left Briefing, 16 September, 2002
11. Financial Times of London. July 3, 1991
12. Elson E. Boles. Counter Punch. October 10, 2002
13. Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988. Iranchamber.com
14. Columbia Journalism Review. March/April 1993. Iraqgate
15. Times Online. December 31, 2002. How U.S. Helped Iraq Build Deadly Arsenal
16. Bush's Secret Mission. The New Yorker Magazine. November 2, 1992
17. Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia: Iran-Contra Affair
18. Congressional Record. July 27, 1992. Representative Henry B. Gonzalez
19. Bob Woodward. CIA Aiding Iraq in Gulf War. Washington Post.
15 December, 1986



  

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AlThu Apr-03-03 11:23 PM
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#52. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 51)


  

          

No bias in that report...

LMAO

"weapon grade anthrax"?

ROTFLMAO



  

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AlThu Apr-03-03 10:51 PM
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#50. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to observer (Reply # 43)


  

          

Yeah, Iran was so happy with those TOW missiles without trackers.



  

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JPTue Apr-01-03 06:31 AM
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#15. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to Al (Reply # 4)
Wed Apr-02-03 02:25 AM

          



"I and my brother against my cousin.
I and my cousin against the world."
- Arab saying

JP

Find your missing friends...

Proud to be a Brat!



JP

  

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AlThu May-22-03 01:54 AM
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"RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"


  

          

Oops...



Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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SpellBinderTue Apr-01-03 06:34 AM
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#16. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

I'll admit that I haven't fully read all the posts in this, but I'd just like to add my $0.02 worth. I do believe that anti-American sentiments will continue to grow, especially the longer that this conflict is drawn out.

I have seen some footage from Turkey just yesterday of this post. Our troops were not very well liked (eggs, rocks, etc. being thrown at American military vehicles). The same footage was also of U.S. military units being pulled out, and an economic downturn for the immediate area, and from what I saw a lot of small business may be out-of-business. Consider, also, how many millions of dollars has been used by the United States to aid Turkey after the last batch of sever earthquakes (and compair that to how much the United States gets when dealing with major earthquakes of her own).

I do hate to say this, but if the majority of the planet wants American troops out of their nations, and we do pull out, there will be much more and much worse conflicts afterwards. Here's just a few examples (with speculations):

South Korea: The United States has approx. 37,000 troops stationed there. If we pull out, that will weaken S.Korea against N.Korea. If N.Korea is crazy enough, they'll invade.

Germany: We have troops stationed there as well. They can be pulled out and Germany can deal with civil defence on their own.

The Middle East in general: Sure, we'll pull out of Iraq, Saudi, etc., totally. Osama bin Laden won't have any excues to complain about the United States, and the more aggressive nations like Iraq & Iran can go about their business as they please (gassing people and toxifying the countryside).

The United States is powerful, yes. The United States has her fingers in everyone's business, yes. The United States is looking for world domination, offically no. I blame a lot of the current anti-American sentiment on a lack of diplomacy from Bush & Cheney. The two have traveled very little relative to other presidents. I do not believe they have done anything worth while to assuring other countries that we're not out for world domination.

  

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81 NewbeeTue Apr-01-03 11:02 AM
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#21. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to SpellBinder (Reply # 16)


  

          

The Arabs will continue to hate the US no matter what we do.The children are taught in schools that we are the DEVILS.This is not likely to change and is not because of Bush or anyone else.They hated us under Clinton as well.Isreal is a thorn in the side of all the Arab countries and as a democracy is a threat to the Princes and other royalty in their countries.They do NOT want a solution to the Palistinian problem.A self sufficient Palistinian State would create a severe problem for Saudia Arabia and the other States in the region.There would be serious attempts to overthrow the present structure of goverments.It is in their interests to keep the situation as it is.
They definitely do NOT want a stable and democratic Iraq.This would create an even bigger problem for the leaders of the adjoining states.They will do everything they can to prevent that from happening! .When we win the war ,our troubles will just be beginning.Isreal is our ONLY friend in the neighbourhood and depends on us which further upsets the Arab nations.It will take a long time to make a real change BUT if it can happen we are the only ones who can make it so.

81 Newbee

  

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golouisTue Apr-01-03 11:08 AM
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#22. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 21)


          

>It will take a long time to make a real change BUT if it can happen we are the only ones who can make it so.

I agree with you there.

As for the Palestinians, I reckon that the best solution ffrom the point of view of the Arab world would be the elimination of Israel to be replaced by an independent Palestine and then a war amongst the Arab states to over-run and dominate Palestine (like Jordan and Saudia Arabia claimed the right to rule the holy places around 1950).

Louis

  

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BrendaCanadaWed Apr-02-03 01:25 AM
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#31. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 21)


          

Russia changed. They are only upset now about their economy and they have misplaced nostalgic memories of communist life because of that.

Maybe there is hope, after a while and improved economies, in the Arab world too. That's what I am counting on anyway.



There is a forest in an acorn.

  

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giddyrigWed Apr-02-03 09:05 PM
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#39. "RE: Will the hatred for America grow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


          

>Will the hatred for America grow?<
Probably not as much as this thread! }>

Hell, I thought it was the latest, "Hip" and "Vogue" thing to hate the USA... Like Pokemon and Furbies! I think they'll probably wrap this hatred in pretty little packages, and sell it with a hard little piece if bubblegum inside! It'll be marketed and posed as the all the rage, and everyone will "Just have to have one!" Yep, I can see it now... little images of a BadBoy pissing on the USA or something representing it, in the back windows of Renaults, and 'Benzes & camel humps like rebel flags on a monster truck in Dixie! Then the US businesses will get blamed for garnering the world market on the trend of hating it's self. And someone will patent it, and everyone will have to pay even more to hate the USA, and it'll be improved in the "Next" release of HateUSA ver. 2.100.1, but of course, the "Beta" version was crap, and had lots of flaws, & they "think" they have all the security issues ironed out, but there's always some exploit, especially when the add-ons are introduced. That damned add-on called "Bend Over" version 1.01, is always crashing, further fueling the Hatred thing, but pretty soon, it loses it's popularity, because of all the bloatware, spyware and Ads that have been introduced to it... Alas, no one is happy, even with their own hatred, and Ted Turner will have to sell his share of it, because someone added AOL, Disney, and CNN and it's not making the money hand over fist like it once did... Pity isn't it?
}> }> }>

  

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cascaThu Apr-03-03 07:08 AM
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#44. "Will the Sun come up tomorrow?"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 0)


  

          

OF course we will encounter more hate, but then as I always say "No good deed goes unpunished!"

Learned that first hand in Nam.

Under Construction

  

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81 NewbeeThu May-22-03 01:54 AM
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#54. "RE: Will the Sun come up tomorrow?"
In response to casca (Reply # 44)


  

          

Hi Giddyrig,Speaking of images of someone pissing,here's one I borrowed from another thread.(with different characters than you suggested):7
I hope some of you are not offended }>

81 Newbee

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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giddyrigThu Apr-03-03 06:07 PM
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#46. "RE: Will the Sun come up tomorrow?"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 54)


          

Gotta like that! Givin' ole Saddam a golden shower? LOL }>

  

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WoodsieSat Apr-05-03 02:27 PM
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#53. "RE: Will the Sun come up tomorrow?"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 46)


          

Yes to all

  

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