Just an idle thought, people: Have you all noticed that there is pretty much a level playing field here...no sexism, ageism, etc. For an example, check out Karen Kenworthy: http:\\www.karenware.com. This lady rocks!
She recently explained, in exacting detail, why a system clock fails to keep accurate time. I saw a thread in here recently on this issue, and nothing came close to Karen's explanation. Sorry I don't have the link readily available, but I think that if you go to here site, you can search her archives.
Karen's a programmer who writes some great, small, powerful app's.
#2. "RE: glass ceiling" In response to Allyn (Reply # 1) Fri May-24-02 09:55 PM
>I visited her site a couple of days ago and keep the link in >my favorites. Some great tools she has compiled. > >I remember her from Windows Magazine. I enjoyed the mag >much better than the competition and used to read it >religiously. > >
Cool! But what are your thoughts regarding what I said about sexism, ageism, etc.?
drmidnight, sorry if I was vague...I mean in the computer industry in general. I think that it's really wonderful that anyone with the desire can achieve whatever level of success they aspire to with no barriers. No heavy lifting!
Oh, i get you. Well, all the time then! Ageism is definitely an issue, thats why the computer industry is filled with so many 23-35 yr old males. But I think it might also have something to do with exposure and interest, not something that I would consider to be an intentional method of keeping women out of the computer industry.
Dear dr., I agree with you about ageism in the industry, but I don't often find it out here in the "real world," i.e. this forum. I'm 52, but have a diploma as a microcomputer/network support tech, and am kept quite busy by friends a whole lot younger than I. They tend to be lazy and not willing to look for stuff like pc911, Fred Langa, Steve Gibson, Karen Kenworthy, et al...they know I do.
I respect everyone's opinion, regardless of race, sex, age, whatever. The help that I've found here is invaluable.
Most women have choosen to stay away from computers, Why? don't ask me. I was in a computer fair in Downtown just this weekend ($10 to get in) I saw few of them, just beside the Computer conference building there was another building with a fashion show at $40 to browse some lingeries and the same shoes you find everywhere, there is where they were, enough to fill the Yankee Stadium.
>Most women have choosen to stay away from computers, Why? >don't ask me. I was in a computer fair in Downtown just this >weekend ($10 to get in) I saw few of them, just beside the >Computer conference building there was another building with >a fashion show at $40 to browse some lingeries and the same >shoes you find everywhere, there is where they were, enough >to fill the Yankee Stadium. > >
Talk about cultural conditioning? I was referring to women motivated enough to cut through this crap! Those with enough intestinal fortitude (in lieu of using the term "balls") can accomplish whatever their gorgeous little hearts desire. God bless 'em.
The computer industry has almost always suffered from a shortage of talented and able programers and engineers. It would be foolish to exclude any segment of the population that can fill that need. Ceilings are tricky things, most peoples ceiling is someone elses floor.
>The computer industry has almost always suffered from a >shortage of talented and able programers and engineers. It >would be foolish to exclude any segment of the population >that can fill that need. Ceilings are tricky things, most >peoples ceiling is someone elses floor.
shelly, i've read and enjoyed several of your earlier posts. You are absolutely correct regarding exclusion being foolish. LOL@"most people's ceiling is someone else's floor. Reminds me of the old saw, "be careful how you treat people on the way up, because they're the same people you'll see on the way down."
#11. "RE: glass ceiling" In response to vietvet69 (Reply # 2) Sat May-25-02 04:06 AM
I have no biases at all regarding women in any industry.
Age can be a factor in a career field, not so much the number of years on the body, but what condition it is in. Pass required physicals (for example, first class physicals for airline pilots) and everything's fine. In the information industry, exercise the mind AND the body and the real age factor can be postponed considerably.
If I was hiring, I'd have no issue with an older person. As long as the applicant demonstrated constructive communication skills with a positive attitude, and of course was knowledgeable, I'd consider him/her an asset.
>I have no biases at all regarding women in any industry. > >Age can be a factor in a career field, not so much the >number of years on the body, but what condition it is in. >Pass required physicals (for example, first class physicals >for airline pilots) and everything's fine. In the >information industry, exercise the mind AND the body and >the real age factor can be postponed considerably. > >If I was hiring, I'd have no issue with an older person. As >long as the applicant demonstrated constructive >communication skills with a positive attitude, and of course >was knowledgeable, I'd consider him/her an asset. > > Gr8 response. Would that everyone felt that way. Kudos! vietvet69
Age had better not be a factor. And all of you had better keep that in mind or this Old Fart will get my GF to smack y'all upside the head and then I'd, I'd, I'd... Hey! It's nap time. Where's my meds? }>
#39. "RE: glass ceiling" In response to Sonny (Reply # 38) Sat May-25-02 06:34 PM
Most definitely right! Congrats again! I'll look for your name on the UD roster.
I'm trying to stay away from CompUSA. I really don't need to buy anything for my new system just yet. Plus, the Sunday ads in the AJC actually come out today. And I've got to mow, and other stuff.
Perhaps some self hypnosis..
There's no place like home...there's no place like home...there's no place like home....
Still looking at that Antec case for myself but my partner and I just had to shell out big $$ to upgrade our networking on our IBM AS/400. You don't want to know how much a difference in $$ there is between PC's amd midrange. There's no such thing as freeware or shareware in the midrange market either. Small utilities start around $1000.
Whoa! I guess you don't get those utilities at the neighborhood computer stores!
I know zip about anything past the PC market. My career path was primarily aviation-oriented so I'm still a relative newbie in home, SOHO, and enterprise IT. I'll ask about it some other time under another topic.
Oh yeah, that Antec 1080 Performance Plus looks really nice! }>
There's no place like home...there's no place like home.....
I hate those old wrinkled up guys and I know I'll never get that way myself. I will never lose my hair or wear glasses.
I hate women too. There's really no place for them except in the home. I don't like their smarty pants ways, the way my wife always outsmarts me and beats me to the answers.
She thinks she is so damned smart just 'cause she's pretty. She thought she was better than me by earning nearly triple what I ever earned.
I LET her hang out her because I'm such a good guy
I work in the computer industry and yes it is still a problem. My VP is a female and my Director is a female but you don't see any females above these levels. For the past 15 years most of my Managers and Supervisors have been women but it seems that they can only go so high and then they hit the glass ceiling.
My wife took a buy out from our company after 15 years in the industry about 9 years ago. She was what was termed a rising star in the company but after years of 80 to 120 hour work weeks it just got to be to much for her and she decided she would rather stay at home with the kids. She would not go back to work in the IT industry now for any amount of money.
Something that they don't teach you in college about the IT industry is the amount of overtime that is required and cost to your personal life. If you are looking for a 9 to 5 job and 40 hour weeks then IT is not for you. If you do get away from the office then you always have that beeper strapped to your belt that really does not allow you any real freedom from the job.
As a side note we average at least one heart attack a week in my building which houses only 2000 employees. The EMT's refer to our company as the Heart Attack Hotel. I lost a co-worker last weekend who was only 44 years old.
>I work in the computer industry and yes it is still a >problem. My VP is a female and my Director is a female but >you don't see any females above these levels. For the past >15 years most of my Managers and Supervisors have been women >but it seems that they can only go so high and then they hit >the glass ceiling.
The ceo of Hp is female. But you are right there aren't many women above the vp level although there should be!
>>I work in the computer industry and yes it is still a >>problem. My VP is a female and my Director is a female but >>you don't see any females above these levels. For the past >>15 years most of my Managers and Supervisors have been women >>but it seems that they can only go so high and then they hit >>the glass ceiling. > >The ceo of Hp is female. But you are right there aren't many >women >above the vp level although there should be!
Hell yes, there ought to be women above the VP level. I believe that one of the great levelers of the IT industry is that what's most important is talent. Unlike law firms, we're looking for people with brains, and we don't really care a whole lot about their breast size.
I firmly believe that (or hope, anyway), that the old boy network crap has had its day.
The problem in the IT industry and probably all big companies is that the accountants and business men run the show so talent doesn't matter anymore. All they want to do is cut cost by forcing massive overtime with treats of out-sourcing positions overseas. When I first started out in the industry 25 years ago the employee counted and was number one. You went to work for a company and it became a home and you didn't mind working the long hours because you knew upper management really cared. That is not the case anymore. The new guys coming into the industry today should figure that if they can last 5 years in a company they are lucky.
I agree you will will find some but they are few and far apart. One thing I have noted in my company that when a women does manage to reach a VP or Director position they seem to surround themselves with other women so that men are shut out and you have an inverse glass ceiling situation. I guess turn about is fair play.
Thanks for the feedback, ranger bob. Personally, I am not ready to deal with all that corporate ladder-climbing, ass kissing, heart attack inducing crap. No amount of money is worth that.
I agree. Honestly, my job is the same way. It seems that ass kissing is what gets you somewhere, rather then just plain hard work. I know some people who are in positions they are completely underqualified for and the only reason they're there is due to kissing ass.
I had a manager many, many years ago that told me that the definition of Diplomacy was "the ability to tell someone to go hell in such a way that they enjoyed the trip". Unfortunately I have never been very diplomatic. I guess I need to stop answering my phone by saying "What the hell do you want now".
ChildofTrance, there must be a way that we can fight against this. Let's be outspoken in our work places, and don't kowtow to bosses. I have a history of doing that, and, admittedly it's sometimes worked to my detriment, but always left me with good taste in my mouth. I don't know about you, but I like being able to look in the mirror in the morning without having to turn away.
"As a side note we average at least one heart attack a week in my building which houses only 2000 employees. The EMT's refer to our company as the Heart Attack Hotel. I lost a co-worker last weekend who was only 44 years old."
Well see, it seems that stepping on others toes, talking behind others backs, kissing ass, making others look bad, etc, is the way to move to the top. No matter what you do or where you go, someone is going to try to push you out of their way and the boss is going to listen to them =(
I haven't figured my boss out personally. I must be doing something wrong. I go to him about anything and he acts like I'm completely wasting his time, no matter how I approach him.
Why don't you just ask your boss about that, and tell him your concerns. If he is worth half the money they pay him, you should be able to speak frankly with him. Could be you're reading him wrong, and need to clear the air.
I couldn't agree with you more but it seems so many of them today are not worth what they are being paid. My boss is not technical and is lost at the tech meetings that he has to attend. Since I am the senior technical advisory for our department I have to attend these meeting with him to keep him from looking to stupid. I have been out on short team disability for 2 months now and he is scared sh*tless to attend these meeting with out me. As a result I have had to attend counts meets via phone hookup during this time to save his rear. In the olden days your boss usually came up the ranks and knew your job as well as you did but today that is not true and often they don't have a clue what you really do. I think it is sad and makes it very hard for them to understand what you are trying to tell them and who is really doing the work in the shop.
Something we all need to realize is that for your boss to know you have talent you have to tell him. I learned this a long time ago. I had an old manager that was reviewing my performance and I started pointing out a lot of neat things I had done for the department and he said why hadn't I said anything before because it was too late now to do anything about raising my rating or giving me a promotion since the budget was already in place. At his level he did not have a clue what was going on in the day to day job. All he knew was that his boss was happy and we didn't have problems in our department.
>I couldn't agree with you more but it seems so many of them >today are not worth what they are being paid. My boss is not >technical and is lost at the tech meetings that he has to >attend. Since I am the senior technical advisory for our >department I have to attend these meeting with him to keep >him from looking to stupid. I have been out on short team >disability for 2 months now and he is scared sh*tless to >attend these meeting with out me. As a result I have had to >attend counts meets via phone hookup during this time to >save his rear. In the olden days your boss usually came up >the ranks and knew your job as well as you did but today >that is not true and often they don't have a clue what you >really do. I think it is sad and makes it very hard for them >to understand what you are trying to tell them and who is >really doing the work in the shop. > >Something we all need to realize is that for your boss to >know you have talent you have to tell him. I learned this a >long time ago. I had an old manager that was reviewing my >performance and I started pointing out a lot of neat things >I had done for the department and he said why hadn't I said >anything before because it was too late now to do anything >about raising my rating or giving me a promotion since the >budget was already in place. At his level he did not have a >clue what was going on in the day to day job. All he knew >was that his boss was happy and we didn't have problems in >our department. ..................................................................
In todays marketplace the CEOs, VP, CFO and Managers are Financial People with business degrees. They, sometimes, do not understand the product they represent. They hire Technical people like yourself for that purpose. Their "expertise" lies in the Financial aspect of the Company.
I'm not sure, but even the CEO of General Motors, Ford etc. might not know anything (or very little) about cars.
I was owner of a Shipping Company in Vancouver for 15 years. My expertise lay in the fact I am a qualified Ship's Capatain. The Company was very successful, and, about 5 years ago I sold to a large Swiss based multinational.
I obtained a General Manager's position in Vancouver, as condition of sale. But, in the three years I worked there, I never met a single VP or CEO that had an inkling about shipping. Yet they are highly successful.
I was unhappy cause I was not able to continue in my area of expertise but was solely involved in Budgetary concerns, Labour strife, Employees complaints. I hired Technical people to do what I did before. That's the way with all Companies.
Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.
I was not speaking about COE's in my post and neither was Shelly. My comments are about the immediate supervisor or department manager who should be more technical if they are going to manage pure technical teams and the trend away from this practice. I agree a COE does not need to know anything about an IBM mainframe to run the company but he should be smart enough to listen to those that do.
I know this can be your perception and you can feel left out of the loop. On the other hand they hired you and, for whatever reason, they saw a need to put you in there.
Considering you have a little responsibility to the guy who hired you and especially to yourself to toughen up and plow through your work in such a way they'll come around asking to talk with YOU!!.
It took me most of my work life to realize that THEY can't do without me (or someone like me). Find out what the company needs and be the guy that gives it to 'em....
> >I know this can be your perception and you can feel left out >of the loop. On the other hand they hired you and, for >whatever reason, they saw a need to put you in there. > >Considering you have a little responsibility to the guy who >hired you and especially to yourself to toughen up and plow >through your work in such a way they'll come around asking >to talk with YOU!!. > >It took me most of my work life to realize that THEY can't >do without me (or someone like me). Find out what the >company needs and be the guy that gives it to 'em....
No I did not need to "toughen" up and plough through life in a position, which incidentally was very well paid. I realised enough money in the sale of my Company and, through various investments, to tell them "to take this job and shove it". I had to work there for 3 years since it was a condition of the Sale. However, I don't envy people who HAVE to continue in an unhappy environment.
The only problem now, is that having signed a seven year "no competition" clause I cannot go into a similar business. But I occasionally pilot large cargo and passenger vessels in and out of the Vancouver Harbour and down the coast to Alaska, especially in Summer. I'm much happier now. After all that's what I'm trained for.
Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.
It really sounds great. It always amazes me the range of fields that our members represent. Wish I had the means to come out and enjoy your expertise on a cruise.
No it is pure fact. In fact the employee that died was late for a meeting on Monday morning for apparent reasons so his manager sent him a verbal reprimand on his VMX for missing the meeting. Talk about SOB's. Of course she didn't know the poor guy had died but she could have at least found out why he missed the meeting before reprimanding the guy. The employee could have put in a 48 hour work day and over slept.
I've tried =*( Honestly, I'm kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. That's why I'm studying to get certs =). a+ and net+ first, then my 3 core's for mcsa and then hopefully mcse later.
I wonder if Karen or any other female geeks view it as a generally "level playing field"? i have to say that i don't know any to ask, but then i'm not in that business.
Computers- breaking the barriers in yet another aspect of society!
>Just to briefly BT (back-topic!) the OT: > >I wonder if Karen or any other female geeks view it as a >generally "level playing field"? i have to say that i >don't know any to ask, but then i'm not in that business. > >Computers- breaking the barriers in yet another aspect of >society!
Sophie, you are so right. I'm amazed that I got so many responses to this post, which was just an idle thought. I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said that the technology has leveled the playing field. If a woman wants to roll her sleeves up and get her hands dirty, she can go for it. Male assholeness won't get in the way. Somebody in an earlier post referred to HP's CEO (can't remember her name offhand, but she's sure a good example), and I know there are others...there's a lady in Australia who's the CEO of a competitive company...can't remember it's name either, 'cause the Althzheimer's is kicking in, but I think the point has been made. If one of my daughter's showed an inclination to be a mover and shaker in the computer industry, I'd advise her to go for it...no holds barred!
