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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 03:23 AM
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"Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"


          

"...Microsoft regularly punishes consumers who buy non-Microsoft products, or who fail to upgrade and repurchase newer versions of Microsoft products, by designing Microsoft Windows or Office products to be incompatible or non- interoperable with competitor software, or even older versions of its own software. It is therefore good that the proposed final order would require Microsoft to address a wide range of interoperability remedies, including for example the disclosures of APIs for Windows and Microsoft middleware products, non-discriminatory access to communications protocols used for services, and non- discriminatory licensing of certain intellectual property rights for Microsoft middleware products. There are, however, many areas where these remedies may be limited by Microsoft, and as is indicated by the record in this case, Microsoft can and does take advantage of any loopholes in contracts to create barriers to competition and enhance and extend its monopoly power..."

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/mtc-00028313.htm

  

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RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement
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daterminehtorSat Feb-16-02 03:38 AM
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#1. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 0)


  

          

Away back in '95, I was saying that Bill God was intent on screwing us over in any way he could. That he was also intent on controlling the Internet. My friends thought me paranoid. Well, it only goes to show you, that M$ will go to any lengths to make money. the question is, do we fault them for doing what ANY business would do, in the name of the bottom line?

UMMMMM

http://daterminehtor.blogspot.com/

  

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BobGuySat Feb-16-02 04:03 AM
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#3. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to daterminehtor (Reply # 1)


          

>the question is, do we fault them for doing what ANY business would do, in the name of the bottom line?

Somehow, Enron comes to mind here

BobGuy©
And the band played on.

  

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daterminehtorSat Feb-16-02 05:46 AM
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#4. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 3)


  

          

I stand corrected. Any ethical and more importantly, non-criminal organization.

http://daterminehtor.blogspot.com/

  

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BobGuySat Feb-16-02 03:59 AM
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#2. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 0)


          

>Microsoft regularly punishes consumers who buy non-Microsoft products, or who fail to upgrade and repurchase newer versions of Microsoft products, by designing Microsoft Windows or Office products to be incompatible or non- interoperable with competitor software, or even older versions of its own software.

That says it all, what more do you need?

P.S. If you can't Samba, then maybe you can do the Cool Jerk!

BobGuy©
And the band played on.

  

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ShellySat Feb-16-02 07:42 AM
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#5. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 2)


  

          

Pardon my giggling, but do you really lend any credence to anything Ralph Nader says?

Shelly

  

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SonnySat Feb-16-02 07:47 AM
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#6. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 5)


  

          


Agreed. Whole heartedly.





  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 08:03 AM
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#7. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 5)
Sat Feb-16-02 08:10 AM

          

What have you got against Nader?

  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 08:09 AM
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#8. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 5)


  

          

Nader never did quite grasp the concept of freedom and free enterprise did he?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 08:11 AM
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#9. "RE: Bill Gate's Comments On Nader"
In response to Myk (Reply # 8)
Sat Feb-16-02 08:12 AM

  

          

"Who?"


--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 08:16 AM
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#10. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 8)
Sat Feb-16-02 08:16 AM

          

You must be kidding. Nader precisely grasps the meaning of free enterprise or do you call Billy's MS monopoly, free enterprise?

  

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TrebuchetSat Feb-16-02 08:21 AM
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#11. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 10)


          

Ralph Nader has been an anti-business flack for 30 years. The fact that he dislikes Microsoft is immaterial: He hates all corporations. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Shelly is quite correct, Nader does not understand freedom. And nobody is forcing you to buy or use Microsoft products. People got along just fine without computers for tens of thousands of years.

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 08:50 AM
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#12. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 11)


          

That is absolutely absurd reasoning! First of all, Nader is not anti-business he's opposed to the outraguous tax breaks and loopholes transnational corporations receive from the government. He's opposed to automobile manufacturers producing cars that explode when rear ended like the Ford Pinto.

Microsoft forces everyone to continue to spend more and more money by making their software incompatible with competitors software or even older versions of their own software.

We have all been forced to utilize computers as an essiential part of our lives. Not knowing how to use them can impair one's ability on many levels, such as economic. We were able to function without automobiles as well until the industrial revolutuion. After the industrial revoluttion owning and knowing how to drive a car was essiential to survival, just as learning to use and own a computer is in the current technological revoultion. Even CAT Operators that don't know how to use the new onboard computer technology can't compete with those that do.


  

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TrebuchetSat Feb-16-02 09:03 AM
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#13. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 12)


          

Your reply indicates you actually know very little about Ralph Nader. I've been to his website, read dozens of articles by him. He is anti-business. Period. You don't have to believe it. But it's true.

As for Microsoft requiring you to upgrade, hogwash! Do you see Ford still stocking parts for the Model T? Billions of people survive without a PC. I'm not a big fan of MS, but they have every right to select their own product cycle. If you don't like it, use Unix or Linux, or buy one of those overpriced Apples. The small company I work for uses Unix, there isn't a Microsoft product in the place.

  

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daterminehtorSat Feb-16-02 09:18 AM
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#14. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 13)


  

          

McDOnalds.

Now, what was the first thing that popped into your mind?

Ralph Nader.

Well?

Aren't we all just disregarding the message for the messenger. What Hal posted (great movie btw) was an opinion that he (obviously) felt had some merit. While iI have checked out Hal's site, (and am interested if he's ever read Chomsky), I'm not going to disregard his posting simply because I may not like where it came from.

think about it.

I don't like Nader, ergo, he has nothing worthwhile to hear?

Now, as semi-intelligent sentient beings, HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

OOGA OOGA

http://daterminehtor.blogspot.com/

  

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TrebuchetSat Feb-16-02 05:40 PM
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#28. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to daterminehtor (Reply # 14)


          

>Aren't we all just disregarding the message for the messenger. What Hal posted (great movie btw) was an opinion that he (obviously) felt had some merit.

I don't like Nader, ergo, he has nothing worthwhile to hear?

Now, as semi-intelligent sentient beings, HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?<


I was not addressing whether or not Nader makes sense in this instance. I was simply stating that as he is the source, his comments have to be examined with an eye on his prejudices against corporations. He is not an unbiased commentator.


>While I have checked out Hal's site, (and am interested if he's ever read Chomsky), I'm not going to disregard his posting simply because I may not like where it came from.<

I'm a bit confused by this comment. Are you asking if HAL9000 has read Noam Chomsky, or if Ralph Nader has? Chomsky has been a "Hate America" leader of the radical left since the 60s, I'm not certain where that applies to Microsoft except that its of course an American corporation.

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 09:47 AM
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#16. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 13)
Sat Feb-16-02 12:06 PM

          

Your interpretation of Nader's business perspective is way too reactionary. He is not anti-business, that simply is not true. He's anti-BIG business that operates as a monopoly. He, like many others is opposed to the restriction of free enterprise among competing companies as a result of Microsoft's attempt at effectively eliminate competition. This has nothing at all to do with Microsoft choosing their own product cycle. When Windows, OE, IE and other MS software comes pre-loaded on virtually every computer sold on the market today, where is the choice for the consumer?

"Billions of people survive without a PC"

That's a scream! Half the people on this planet don't even have a phone. We're not talking about the 3rd world here.

You vision of the future is impared. There will come a time when everyone living in technologically literate society will have to know how to operate a computer. You won't even be able to turn the lights on in your home if you don't. Haven't you heard of the "E" Home? That was Bill's idea.



  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 09:56 AM
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#17. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 16)


  

          

Making regulations so thick that it's impossible for a business to run is anti-business.

Free enterprise works on the assumption that if you don't like Microsoft you won't buy Microsoft. Obviously people do like Microsoft or they are too much into the flock mentality to back up their feelings about it.

And no, you don't need a computer.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 10:45 AM
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#18. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 17)
Sat Feb-16-02 10:49 AM

          

>Making regulations so thick that it's impossible for a
>business to run is anti-business.

I think you need to really read the proposed MS settlement agreement case. This isn't about not allowing MS to run a business. It's about MS restrictions on other businesses in the market place.

> Obviously people do like Microsoft or they are too much into the flock mentality to back up their feelings about it.

People like convienience. Most people live from pay check to pay check. They have children who need cavities filled, they have lawns to mow, they have dogs who need to go to the vet. They have weekend custody of their children. We live in a highly specialized society. Grass roots movements are difficult to organize. The 1960's are gone! Ask youself why computer retailers don't offer a choice of different Operating Systems with a wide selection of accompanying software with all the differnt computer brands.

>And no, you don't need a computer.

You must be joking! The next time you or someone you know needs emergency medical treatment tell them that you don't need a computer. Medical technology is almost completley converted to computer use from the dispensing of medication through computer monitored IV's to simply taking your tempature. Tell the supermarket clerk she doesn't need a computer to scan your items. Try withdawing cash from an ATM without the bank using a computer.

What you percieve as current home computer use for entertainment will soon be required for virtually everything you do from the time you wake till you go to sleep in a technologically based society. In the next 10 years you will be considered as illiterate without knowledge of the computer as you would if you didn't know how to read.

Gee Whiz! This is a computer forum isn't it!






  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 12:08 PM
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#19. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 18)


  

          

"Ask youself why computer retailers don't offer a choice of different Operating Systems with a wide selection of accompanying software with all the differnt computer brands."

Do you have a lack of computer shops in your area? A lack of anyone able to build a custom computer? People buy the brands because they are sheep. The brands stock what sells because they are selling to sheep. The sheep want MS. Grassroots are difficult to organize (if they actually were, which they are not) because too many people are self centered sheep. They can't be bothered to boycott something because they may have to think for themselves as to why they are boycotting it and that would take away from their "me" time.

If MS if forcing the branded computers to be sold with MS products and you don't like it then you don't buy those products. It's as simple as that. If there are no brands left to "force" MS products on you there will be no MS left to "force" you to buy their stuff. But before the brands would let that take them under they would start offering computers with other operating systems, just like they started offering AMD processors.

We survived for many years without computers. Just because some businesses use computers for convenience does not mean they are needed. You seem to be confusing NEED with WANT (which is a common problem these days). Even though some businesses rely too heavily on computers does not mean they are NEEDED. When my bank's computers go down I can still withdraw money. If all computers went down tomorrow we would get by. Sure it would take some work getting rid of the dependence but that dependence is not needed.

I think it was 20 years ago we were supposed to have automatic sidewalks. I doubt if your 10 year prediction comes any truer than that one. And if it ever does come down to that you will be seeing what true illiteracy is when the power goes out.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 12:27 PM
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#20. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 19)


  

          

"I think it was 20 years ago we were supposed to have automatic sidewalks."

I forgot, flying cars, monorails and domed cities too. And we were going to have to farm the oceans because of over population.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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doctormidnightSat Feb-16-02 12:29 PM
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#21. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 20)


  

          

I don't care what anyone says, the MonoRail in Seattle rules!

  

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LilJoeSun Feb-17-02 10:27 AM
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#37. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 20)


  

          

"I think it was 20 years ago we were supposed to have automatic
sidewalks."

We have them,but they are in the airport terminals.

LilJoe

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 02:26 PM
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#23. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 19)
Sat Feb-16-02 03:59 PM

          

> You seem to be confusing NEED with WANT which is a common problem these days.

We didn't need oil either, we wanted it! Confusing need and want has been a common problem for man since the dawn of time. I wasn't around then. If you find out who was, please post your answer on the "who's the oldest," thread.

If we were living in a newly born industrialized society and I presented you with the same argument and substituted automobiles for computers, would you say "it would take some work getting rid of the dependence but that dependence is not needed."

To accomadate the extinction of our dependence on oil. We would have to tear down all the roads and highways we built. Re-engineer our cities and residential neighborhoods and a seek alternative sources of energy for heating, and food production and God knows what else. In addition, all military supremacy after world war I became contingent on who controlled oil. Without oil an army has no planes, no tanks no automated transport.

A civilization's strengths and weaknesses can be defined by what it values most. Man's skill to provide himself with food has all but atrophied unless your a hunter. If food wasn't shipped and stored in a supermarket for you, would you know how to kill and skin an animal or would you know what wild plants you could eat? Man's dependency on oil and the industrial revolution has weakened man's personal ability to achieve his own survival. I'm not saying its good or bad only that it is. Computers will have the same effect on man and will achieve the same survival stature as money, another artifical tool for survival. In the future, without access through a computer, you won't be able to obtain food, water or living accommodations. Their already marketing a chip to be planted under the skin for identification purposes http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/hal9.html The technological revolution is as profound in its effects on our civilization as the industrial revolution was. In a timeline of man's development, computers will be equated with having caused the same unparalleled change in civilization as fire or oil did. And we will become just as dependent on computers as we did on fire and oil.

As you know scientists have mapped the human genome. They only found 30,000 or so genes they think but interestingly enough now the rush is on to locate every one of those genes and the proteins they code for and then to secure intellectual property protection over it. If this goes unchallenged in less that 10 years a handful of life science companies will own the genetic blueprints that make up our species. That is unprecedented power! Allowing private corporations to dictate the terms upon which we enter the age of biology in the 21st and 22nd century. This could never have been accomplished without the use of computers. http://cse.stanford.edu/classes/sophomore-college/projects-00/computers-and-the-hgp/intro.html This achievement has been compared to the discovery of the atom bomb. The use of computers is hardly confined to intermittent business use.


  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 03:03 PM
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#24. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 23)


  

          

You are right. We don't need oil. And if it's supply was shut off tomorrow we would survive. And if I didn't like the way the oil companies did business I wouldn't support their business by buying their product or anything that used them. It may mean that I would live like an 1800's trapper but I wouldn't be paying them money while I was crying for the govt to step in and make them do business the way I wanted them to.
If you don't like something don't buy it, it's that simple. That is free enterprise, that is freedom.

BTW, I am a hunter and that is exactly the type of illiteracy I was talking about that those who set themselves up for a technological crash will experience. I hunt for about 90% of the meat I eat. I garden about 75% of my vegetables. I'm not one of the sheep who believes that if you get out of a stranded vehicle in a snow storm that you will freeze to death, I play in weather that is too cold for snow and sweat while doing it.

If you wish to make yourself soft and go along with the other sheep don't complain about some MS who comes along and takes advantage of your willingness to be taken advantage of. It is a choice that you made and it's not the govt's place to make anyone do business so it benifits you.

"This could never have been accomplished without the use of computers"

And none of that was needed. (besides that the statement is bordering on paranoia)

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 04:15 PM
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#26. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 24)
Sat Feb-16-02 04:53 PM

          

Last time I checked Ralph Nader didn't work for the government. And I never said I condoned the government's involvement with Microsoft. I don't intend to go soft and I have a garden too and chickens. I watch Martha Stewart regularly. It's a good thing.

Also, I eat determination for breakfast and have been known to chew on nails.

  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 10:48 PM
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#30. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 26)


  

          

Thank the Gods he doesn't work for the govt. but the last I checked he wants to work for the govt. and he has the ear of those in govt. Sometimes that can be worse because those types don't have the people to answer to.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 03:07 AM
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#32. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 30)


          

Who do you thinks OWNS the polititions? clue: it ain't ralph nader.

  

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AlSun Feb-17-02 05:34 AM
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#33. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 32)


  

          

True. It is the PEOPLE of the United States.



  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 08:04 AM
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#34. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Al (Reply # 33)


          

And Oswald killed Kennedy...

  

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Paul DTue Feb-19-02 03:02 AM
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#72. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 24)


  

          

Myk, you would most probably survive, but civilisation wouldn't.
Look around for a book called Earth Abides by George Stewart. It will argue the case much better than I can.
No oil, no power. No power, no printing presses. No printing presses, no education. End of story. (Over-simplified, but you get the drift.)




Paul D

Insert text here



Paul D

  

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AlSat Feb-16-02 04:57 PM
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#27. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 16)


  

          

Hal9000

How old are you? Do you remember when Ralph Nader's name first became known?

Ever hear of the Corvair? Look it up. Ralph Nader may consider himself a proponent of ethical business, but in fact, he is an opponent of business, because he doesn't understand it, nor does he understand market forces or free-enterprise. From that perspective, he doesn't get it. Never has.

Now, that doesn't mean that his viewpoint doesn't have value. Monopolies do not respond to market forces, which is why Microsoft has been in court. I would limit how much weight I gave Ralph Nader's opinion because of his demonstrated lack of understanding of business, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.



  

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 09:07 PM
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#29. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Al (Reply # 27)


          

Good point Al.

  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 08:06 AM
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#35. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Al (Reply # 27)


          

I owned a Corvair. It was a death trap.

  

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TrebuchetSun Feb-17-02 09:15 AM
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#36. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 35)
Sun Feb-17-02 09:22 AM

          

Gosh, how did you survive when it exploded?

Hal, it's obvious you have a very conspiracy-oriented view of the world. I suggest you log off your computer because "they" can watch you through it. Otherwise the Tri-Lateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations (You know, the guys hovering those black helicopters over your house) will be able to mind control you just like the do the rest of us.

  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 12:19 PM
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#38. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 36)
Sun Feb-17-02 12:50 PM

          

In spite of what you may think, I always enjoy reading your posts! You're obviously well read, well educated and by the design of your avatar, although staunchly conservative, I can tell you've got class.

There is much good in the world and there is deceit. Deceit, lies and conspiracy, date back to the dawn of time. Because of the nature of man's consciousness, (aware of being aware) he sees himself as separate and alienated from the universe, or all that is. Man's greed precedes him because he needs to re-create a world he can own and control, since he feels separate from the one he lives in, the one he refuses to acknowledge he is a part of. It all began with Adam eating from the tree of knowledge. We are all here, because we need to complete the cycle from guilt back to innocense. When we return, we will have a deeper understanding of what love is, the glue that holds the universe together.

My objective is to reinforce the truth where I see deceit. Now, it's not necessarily important to me whether you personally believe or understand me, but if only one person who reads these posts, or anyone's posts, where the truth is written and is understood, the goal will have been accomplished. Admittedly, I may be wrong in some of my observations here and you, or someone else, may be right. But as Elvis Costello said, "my aim is true."

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?… Has it ever occurred to your, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now?…The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact, there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness." —Syme, pg 46-47 George Orwell 1984

  

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MykSun Feb-17-02 12:56 PM
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#39. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 38)


  

          

But, sometimes a banana is just a banana.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 01:05 PM
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#40. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 39)


          

Well put

  

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TrebuchetSun Feb-17-02 05:49 PM
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#41. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 38)
Sun Feb-17-02 08:11 PM

          

>My objective is to reinforce the truth where I see deceit. Now, it's not necessarily important to me whether you personally believe or understand me, but if only one person who reads these posts, or anyone's posts, where the truth is written and is understood, the goal will have been accomplished. Admittedly, I may be wrong in some of my observations here and you, or someone else, may be right. But as Elvis Costello said, "my aim is true."<

Mark, you're obviously an intelligent guy, but your worldview is a bit scary. It is your apparent belief that the world is somehow run by invisible cabals. While that's an intriguing notion and certainly worth examining, the truth is much less romantic: It's just as screwed up as it appears to be.

There's simply no logical basis for believing, as you apparently do, that anybody but Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. This crime has been examined until the cows came home (In fact, it's the most-written about single incident in history). The impartially examined evidence concluded a lone nut did it. It was not an miraculous shot, but a very routine one that any half-competent marksman could have made. Likewise, politicians are not neccessarilly controlled by anything other than their own ideology and rabid desire to be re-elected. Microsoft is a large, powerful, and perhaps needlessly aggressive corporation, but they are not the center of evil in the world or even in industry. I prefer to apply Occams Razor, which is (to paraphrase wildly) "The simplest solution is probably the correct one".

You don't need secret societies to run the world because the imperfections of mankind already allows plenty of room for tremendous evil and deceit. For most of the world (And for most of history as well), naked force and fear are what rule, not law. Don't make the assumption that an agenda is necessarily good or bad. All humans have agendas. Adolf Hitler had one, but then so did Mother Theresa. (When I take my girlfriend out to dinner, my agenda is to have a good meal and hopefully get some afterward. )

Skeptics motto: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"


  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 10:04 PM
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#42. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 41)


          

And O.J. didn't do it, and Jimmy Haffa got lost and couldn't find his way home, and no one at Enron knew anything about what was going on. I didn't know there were residential accomodations at Disneyland. You seem to be in a continual state of denial.

I don't believe in the duality of good and evil or heaven and hell. If you've noticed, I've never used the word evil. Yes, people manifest good and evil behavior, but there is no evil, only the belief in evil. Because I know there is wide scale deception going on, does not mean I believe that invisible cabals control everything.

The Warren Commission was a farce. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to withdraw troops from Vietnam and the Military Industrial Complex had money to make. If anyone's worldview is scary, it's yours. You're sleeping and it's time to wake up.

Your motto is based on the assumption that what I and others see is hidden, so for you, what I see requires proof. Your beliefs have distorted your vision so instead of you seeing what's there, you see what you want to see. Your sleeping and living in a dream. Happy trails to you, until, we meet, again...

  

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TrebuchetSun Feb-17-02 10:27 PM
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#43. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 42)


          

>does not mean I believe that invisible cabals control everything.

The Warren Commission was a farce. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to withdraw troops from Vietnam and the Military Industrial Complex had money to make.<

And you don't think this so-called military-industrial complex wouldn't be a invisible cabal? What would you expect, a big sign out on the front lawn of their headquarters:

Military Industrial Complex Secret Headquarters.
1 President Killed Since 1962

John F. Kennedy, I might remind you, was the gent who got us INTO Vietnam. Whilst I'm certainly no supporter of the Kennedy legend, he was a staunch (some say paranoid) anti-Communist who saw them behind every tree. Contrary to Kennedy pulling out of Vietnam, he was looking to increase American involvement. Why do you think he created the Special Forces?

And yes, OJ did it and Mr. Hoffa is sleeping with the fishes.

  

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hal9000Sun Feb-17-02 11:23 PM
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#44. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 43)


          

Actually, Kennedy did not get us into Vietnam and everyone was anti-communist then. Remember the cold war? Macarthy?

In March 1954, France called on Eisenhower to send military assistance. Ike refused and the French surrendered. After the French defeat, Ho Chi Minh agreed to have a Geneva conference at which a cease-fire was proposed. The French withdrew to a Southern regroupment zone while the communists occupied the northern zone, all in preparation for national elections in 1956. Almost immediately, the Eisenhower administration established a puppet government in Saigon headed by Ngo Dinh Diem, sent in U.S. military advisors.

You don't know who the people in real power are. I'm impressed with your Haffa realization. No deceit there huh?




  

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TrebuchetSun Feb-17-02 11:49 PM
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#45. "Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 44)
Sun Feb-17-02 11:53 PM

          

I'm sorry, but you're as close minded about this as you accuse me of being. You've made up your mind, and no amount of evidence I or anyone else can produce will change it. You simply condemn anything that doesn't fit your world view.

I realized this going into this discussion because I've debated conspiracy nuts before. Any disproof of a theory just means there is another layer of the conspiracy still to be uncovered, it's like peeling an onion. It's really a rather sad view of the world because it means that nobody can be responsible for success or failure since the Secret Masters of the World want it this way. If the secret rulers of this sorry world really were so all powerful, what makes you think ordinary people like you or I could discover the truth? Why aren't you dead, assassinated to keep the awful truth hidden?

You remind me of a young Holocaust disbeliever I once debated online, he just didn't realize all his information was coming from neo-Nazi websites and books (David Irving, etc.). He'd never read any real history books or talked to an actual Holocaust survivor, just read the stuff his anti-Jewish websites suggested. He actually thought World War II was started by the British to crush the innocent Nazis, and that the death camps were created by the Jews to get rid of their excess population. (Or, conversely, were all Allied propaganda).

I didn't enter this debate expecting to convert you, because it's futile, but so others who might have the patience to read this admittedly convoluted thread might realize there is another point of view. If I've offended you, I apologize.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 03:33 AM
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#46. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 45)


          

Knowing the truth will not immediately threaten those responsible for deception because their are so many people like you around who believe the propaganda you hear from mainstream news sources like NBC or CBS, all corporately owned media companies with vested interests and institutionalized gutless journalism. One can only learn the truth from alternative news sources with no vested interests.

People in power cannot deceive the informed. Those who are not deceived cannot be controlled. The young Holocaust disbeliever reminds me of you. Simple logic alone should tell you for instance that NBC, a huge defense contractor and nuclear power plant manufacturer, is not going to tell you the truth about anything that may threaten their vested interests. It's like trying to obtain an objective review of a computer from the manufacturer's brochure, you don't read Dell's brochure, you read a consumer reports magazine.




  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 04:18 AM
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#47. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 46)
Mon Feb-18-02 05:34 AM

          

One can only learn the truth from alternative news sources with no vested interests.<

NBC is a "huge defense contractor"? An "operator of nuclear plants"? Where in the world did you ever get such an idea? How does a BROADCASTING company do defense contracting? And if the all-controlling corporations you envision are actually so powerful, then why haven't we built a new nuclear power plant in the US in over 20 years? Wouldn't they be building them like mad, seeing our current energy crunch?

Your fundamental mistake is that assuming that there is such a thing as a source with no vested interest. Everybody has a motive or agenda, the trick is figuring out what it is and allowing for it. I haven't watched the mainstream news such as ABC or NBC for years because I know they are heavily biased toward liberalism in their reporting. They certainly don't favor corporate interests in their reporting, they are unabashedly critical of business. Ownership does not necessarily indicate bias. I prefer the much more balanced approach of Fox News, along with numerous magazines and websites. What makes you think your "alternative news sources" are without bias? If you read only them, don't you only get their twist on the facts?

Wouldn't a balanced selection of sources be more likely to provide objective truth? A synthesis, as opposed to a thesis, is more likely to approach truth. As an example, if "Mein Kampf" were the only book about post-WWI Germany a person read, wouldn't he come away with a rather bizarre view of German politics and life? Certainly "Mein Kampf" would have been an "alternative" source? It was written by a young radical who was jailed for attempting an armed coup against the legally-elected government and 10 years later succeeded in seizing total power. His name: Adolf Hitler.

With that thought, I'll withdraw. Thanks for the discussion, I'll look forward to any reply.

  

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SonnyMon Feb-18-02 04:20 AM
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#48. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 47)


  

          


Forget it Treb, you're trying to reason with the indoctrinated. Not worth the effort.





  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 05:01 AM
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#49. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to Sonny (Reply # 48)


          

Hey, nobody can say I didn't at least try. Perhaps the candle in the darkness will illuminate further upon reflection.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 06:33 AM
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#53. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 47)


          

NBC is owned by General Electric. You better expand your so-called diverse sources of information.

I do agree one should obtain information from a variety of places.

  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 06:44 AM
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#55. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 53)
Mon Feb-18-02 07:02 AM

          

Mr. Worstell, you said "Simple logic alone should tell you for instance that NBC, a huge defense contractor and nuclear power plant manufacturer, is not going to tell you the truth about anything that may threaten their vested interests.". General Electric was not mentioned at any point in your statement. I am well aware that NBC is a wholy-owned subsidiary of GE, but that does not give NBC any creditable connection to the defense industry or nuclear power plants. You have drawn that connection without any proof.

Based on your exact logic: Since you, Mr. Worstell, have a website hosted on a corporate or corporate-constructed server, constructed from corporate built components, and running a corporate-written operating system, you are therefore part of a conspiracy with those corporations. In addition, you recommend certain products and literature on that website which are sold for a profit, which aids those aforementioned corporations, other corporations, and/or government organizations. Furthermore you derive an income derived either from employment or a government check and both institutions are party to the conspiracy and since you thus have a fiduciary connection to these entities you are not to be believed as you obviously have an agenda to spread disinformation regarding that same conspiracy.

Does it make more sense to you now?

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 10:17 AM
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#65. "RE: Way OT: Conspiracies"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 55)


          

>General Electric was not mentioned at any point in your
>statement. I am well aware that NBC is a wholy-owned
>subsidiary of GE

If you were well aware of it, why bring to my attention that GE was not mentioned?

>but that does not give NBC any creditable
>connection to the defense industry or nuclear power plants.
>You have drawn that connection without any proof.

If you can't see the conflict of interest on this one, it may be because your focusing on winning a debate and not on exchanging ideas for the purpose of learning.

>Since you, Mr. Worstell, have a
>website hosted on a corporate or corporate-constructed
>server, constructed from corporate built components, and
>running a corporate-written operating system, you are
>therefore part of a conspiracy with those corporations. In
>addition, you recommend certain products and literature on
>that website which are sold for a profit, which aids those
>aforementioned corporations, other corporations, and/or
>government organizations.

Yeah, I struggled with that one. There are many alternantive web sites on geocities, I doubt their information is disregarded because of their server affiliations. If NBC offered me the opportunity to speak my mind on their network, I'd take advantage of that too. I doubt there would be any chance someone believed I represented NBC's interest, which is probably why they would never let me on, further supporting my logic. I make no money on the ads displayed on my web site but do feel like somewhat of a hypocrite.

>Furthermore you derive an income
>derived either from employment or a government check and
>both institutions are party to the conspiracy and since you
>thus have a fiduciary connection to these entities you are
>not to be believed as you obviously have an agenda to spread
>disinformation regarding that same conspiracy.

You don't know how I derive my income. I'll bet you subscribe to the "Love it or Leave it," slogan. The entire system has not been completely corrupted, yet. One must work within the system to change the system.

>Does it make more sense to you now?

No.

You aren't an attorney by any chance are you?

  

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AlMon Feb-18-02 05:24 AM
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#50. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 42)


  

          

"Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to withdraw troops from Vietnam and the Military Industrial Complex had money to make."

And you choose that particular reason because it fits your view of the world?

Why not:

"Kennedy was assassinated because he owed his election to organized crime but was having his brother prosecute them without mercy."

or:

"Kennedy was assassinated because he had pledged to go to the moon, and the Martians didn't want men on the moon."

Get the point?




  

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No_OneMon Feb-18-02 05:52 AM
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#51. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Al (Reply # 50)


          

Hal9000 has created his own reality and view of the world, as explained on his webpage.
I agree, it sure is puzzling.
I personally am going to start using "entities" as an all-purpose excuse, for everything from speeding to not paying income tax.

  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 06:04 AM
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#52. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to No_One (Reply # 51)


          

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I've been operating under the incorrect assumption that Hal9000 simply was being deceived by conspiracy nuts and assorted kooks. After viewing his website, I now see that he is one of the kooks. Anyone who actually believes in channeling has crossed right over into outright irrationality. I'll waste no more time with him (except possibly to yank his chain) until the nice gentlemen in clean white coats come to get him. Hopefully he can get professional help. What a shame.

By the way, I know he's wrong because the Atlanteans told me so through my psychic bond. JKF actually committed suicide.

"They're coming to take me away, ha ha!" - Wierd Al Yankovic

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 06:39 AM
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#54. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 52)


          

There was an Atlantis!

The url indicated this was PC911. I didn't realize it was the John Birch Society.

"Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was... a mass of imbecile enthusiasms—one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended." —pg 22 George Orwell 1984

  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 08:01 AM
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#58. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 54)
Mon Feb-18-02 08:04 AM

          

>The url indicated this was PC911. I didn't realize it was the John Birch Society.<

I'm not surprised you've reverted to calling people who disagree with your wierd theories names. Heck, why leave any ambiguity about how you feel? Why not just call us Nazis? Since we disagree with you, we must be evil and/or corrupt.

If you wish to discuss computers, you're in the right place. But take your conspiracy crap elsewhere. Please.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 08:53 AM
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#60. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 58)
Mon Feb-18-02 09:19 AM

          

"You remind me of a young Holocaust disbeliever I once debated online"
"I've debated conspiracy nuts before" - post 45

"I now see that he is one of the kooks" - Post 52

Who's calling who names?

If you don't like what you read on a thread I've initiated, don't post to it.

btw - You are familiar with the 1st Amendment? Does that not apply here?

  

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MykMon Feb-18-02 08:31 AM
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#59. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 54)


  

          

Just because we do computers doesn't mean we do conspiracies, are liberals, are conservatives or are anything for that matter.
You will find that this is a very diverse bunch.

Oh, and Kennedy didn't get us into Vietnam but he did make Vietnam into what it became. He didn't want to withdraw troops, he added more. You would be more on target to say that he was assassinated because he escalated the war.
You can say that there is more to Kennedy's assassination than we will ever know about and I would agree with you. But when you start coming up with a reason without proof I will look at you as a conspiracy nut.

BTW, "sometimes a banana is just a banana." is a joke about how Freud always wanted to see other meanings...except when it didn't suit his needs.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 09:10 AM
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#61. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to Myk (Reply # 59)
Mon Feb-18-02 09:12 AM

          

Kennedy had planned on withdrawing all troops from Vietman. And yes, the reasons for his assasination we're attributable to more that his plans to end the Vietnam War.

Listen, I like the people here. I'm entitled to my opinion, being that several here are conservative and restrictive in their thinking. So what's the big deal? One can disagree without getting emotional about it.

And your banana analogy was understood. I guess you think it only applies to me.

  

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MykMon Feb-18-02 09:23 AM
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#62. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 61)


  

          

"Kennedy had planned on withdrawing all troops from Vietman.", "his plans to end the Vietnam War."

Why would you believe his lip service but you don't believe someone elses? I'll have to recheck my timeline but I don't think there was anything for him to plan on removing us from until he escalated something. When any politician says something and does the opposite I'm inclinded to start looking for bananas not to be bananas. Nixon did want to remove the troops but that banana wasn't going to happen until after he got a second term.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion but don't be so surprised when people don't agree with it.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 09:36 AM
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#63. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to Myk (Reply # 62)
Mon Feb-18-02 09:37 AM

          

Have you seen the movie, "JFK"? If not you should. And I'm not suprised when people don't agree with me, but I see no point in getting angry about it.

  

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AlMon Feb-18-02 07:41 PM
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#68. "RE: Hal9000s website"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 63)


  

          

You're kidding, right? You are referring to that piece of fiction that Oliver Stone put together as if it has any relationship to reality?

Bet you believed Oliver Stone when he told his war stories too, huh?



  

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HETTATLONGUNSat Feb-16-02 09:46 AM
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#15. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 0)
Sat Feb-16-02 10:04 AM

          

?

Before the IBM PC and the "Wintel" platform, the personal computer business was a hodge-podge! There was no "standard". Just about all personal computer manufactures approached computing from a proprietary point-of-view.

Heh! We probably would not be "talking" on this message board without Wintel.

I've owned a Atari 800, a Apple IIc and a Lobo MAX-80 (Z80). They were all good computers, but trying to find software for them was a bleach! Especailly the Lobo! Heh! Talk about standards for media. It was a good thing I bought the CM-1050 Drives! Dual 8-inch Segates. With CP/M 3.0, I could get 1.225MB of storage on each of the 8-inch floppy disks.

AMD Athlon64 3000+, MSI K8T Neo-FSR, Corsair CMX512-PC3200C2, Windows XP Pro, High-Speed AOL Plus!

  

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magicjabbaSat Feb-16-02 12:39 PM
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#22. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to HETTATLONGUN (Reply # 15)


          

While I have my gripes w/ MS, I can't really blame old Bill. He is a smart business man. That's it. As far as being monopoly, there are other options for every product that MS sells.

Ethics? The cold truth is that our free enterprise system doesn't include ethics. If you do not like the services/products that a company offers, go with another company. Yes, MS does what it can to stop the competition, but this is actually better for the consumer. Stiff competition forces underdogs to strive for supurior products.

Example: 4-5 years ago virtually all PC's came with Intel processors. While many of Intels competitors couldn't go to war w/ Intel, AMD has gained a lot of popularity simply because it offers a superior product for a cheaper price. How has AMD done this? It was the only way for the company to survive. Because of stiff competition we now have a variety of well manufactured processors to put in our computers.

MS is so popular/powerful because they truly offer the most reliable/easy-to-use products on the market. The only way to dethrone MS is for a company to offer a better product at a better deal, which (in the long run) ultimatly benifits us, the consumer.

Side note: everyone loves to say that MS is a heartless company that cares nothing for us the consumer, yet MS's tech support is the best of any major computer hardware or software company out there. I have dealt with tech support from many companies and MS has provided the quickest hold times to reach someone, and their technicians will go the extra mile to make sure your problem is solved.

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hal9000Sat Feb-16-02 03:18 PM
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#25. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to magicjabba (Reply # 22)


          

Yes. You make some good points and your processor point is valid. But most consumers aren't buying processors. Most consumers are buying a computer that just happens to come equipped with Microsoft's products. Microsoft's products are a sub-product contained within the major purchase of the computer itself.

As a result, a consumer is virtually forced to utilize Microsoft's products or Microsoft based products for the life of the computer.


  

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MykSat Feb-16-02 10:52 PM
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#31. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 25)


  

          

"Most consumers are buying a computer that just happens to come equipped with Microsoft's products.

Baaaaaahhh

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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andrini2000Mon Feb-18-02 06:52 AM
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#56. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Myk (Reply # 31)


  

          

A few things for sure wheather ya like Bill Gates or not...He's the Christopher Columbus of the internet and a very smart business man.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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magicjabbaMon Feb-18-02 07:43 AM
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#57. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 25)


          

"Yes. You make some good points and your processor point is valid. But most consumers aren't buying processors. Most consumers are buying a computer that just happens to come equipped with Microsoft's products. Microsoft's products are a sub-product contained within the major purchase of the computer itself."


How many computers have you bought that didn't happen to come with a processor? Intel procs used to come with virtually every PC, but now you have the choice of Intel or AMD. Other than Windows, many manufacturers offer MS altenatives such as Lotus Smart Suite as opposed to MS Office.

The reason most computers come with Windows is because it is easy to use and reliable. If and when someone comes out with a superior OS expect to see computers that come with that OS.

(Yes, I know Linux has many fans. But let's face it, Windows is the better option for most computer users out there.)

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Mike1Mon Feb-18-02 09:46 AM
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#64. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to magicjabba (Reply # 57)


          

Bill's Ma Sez: Awww Come On ! What's not to Love ! LOL !

Another satisfied PC Q&A customer

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 11:06 AM
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#66. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 0)


          

There is an enormous difference in free enterprise as exercised
under our constitutional republic form of government and the corporate
culture that has DESTROYED that form of goverment.

  

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TrebuchetMon Feb-18-02 05:03 PM
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#67. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 66)


          

There is also a tremendous difference between healthy skepticism about government and business and outright paranoia regarding the same institutions.

All in all, I consider corrupt government to be a much bigger potential threat than corrupt corporations. Corporations cannot force you to do anything at gunpoint. Governments can. If you buy a Mitsubishi instead of a Ford, Ford Motor Company cannot send armed personell to make you buy that Ford. Bill Gates cannot throw you in jail for using Linux. But try not paying you taxes to your government.

  

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hal9000Mon Feb-18-02 10:57 PM
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#70. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 67)


          

It should be obvious to any objectively clear thinker that political power aligns with economic power. The larger the economic unit, the larger its dominant players, and the more political power becomes concentrated in the largest corporations. The greater the political power of corporations and those aligned with them, the less the political power of the people, and the less meaningful democracy becomes. Storm trooping military dictatorship will be completely unnecessary.

The world will no longer be seperated by governments. NAFTA mechanisms, as well as the WTO, IMF, and World Bank are totally undemocratic, with no access by the people. They are run by the nations with the greatest wealth, the U.S. in the first place-with the corporations and banks pulling the strings.

One of the greatest threats to free speech online is the use of corporate rating and filtering systems that block huge numbers of Web sites using methods that are either mindlessly mechanistic or highly subjective, or both, and that the filter manufacturers guard as proprietary information. The examples of overblocking are now legion and often ludicrous from health information (e.g., "breast cancer") to NASA's Web site on Mars exploration (one address was marsexpl.htm). Originally marketed as voluntary "parental empowerment," filtering is now required in many public schools and libraries, inhibiting research projects, censoring controversial speech, and depriving arts, informational, and advocacy groups of much of their audience.

  

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TrebuchetTue Feb-19-02 12:15 AM
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#71. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 70)
Tue Feb-19-02 03:05 AM

          

>It should be obvious to any objectively clear thinker that political power aligns with economic power. The larger the economic unit, the larger its dominant players, and the more political power becomes concentrated in the largest corporations. The greater the political power of corporations and those aligned with them, the less the political power of the people, and the less meaningful democracy becomes. Storm trooping military dictatorship will be completely unnecessary.

The world will no longer be seperated by governments. NAFTA mechanisms, as well as the WTO, IMF, and World Bank are totally undemocratic, with no access by the people. They are run by the nations with the greatest wealth, the U.S. in the first place-with the corporations and banks pulling the strings.<

OK, now it becomes clear. You're just upset that your pals' demonstrations in New York a couple of weeks ago were so quiet. The riots in Seattle and Rome last year were more to your taste. If you wereen't with them, your sympathies certainly are. Just another neo-anarchist.

If banks were pulling all the strings in the world, please explain to me how Argentina was allowed to default on hundreds of billions of dollars in loans from banks? And why every nation that has borrowed money from the IMF has been an abject failure? The IMF is a socialist idea, not a capitalist one.

Corporations can plow in all the cash they wish to candidates, but they still cannot vote. Only people vote. Do you honestly think corporations would ever support anybody but Republicans if it were that easy to control elections? It's because they cannot control elections that businesses disperse money to both parties. It keeps them in good with whoever comes (or remains) in power.

The simple fact remains that only free countries are economically powerful. There are various permutations of how much liberty each wealthy nation has, but the fundamental concept is sound. The one thing all these suffering Third World nations have in common is corrupt government. It isn't because they were all colonies of the West, they weren't). Nor is it because they lack natural resources. (Mexico has abundant natural resources and millions of hardworking people, the one thing they've lacked over the past several hundred years is a government that was honest.) Switzerland and Singapore have no natural resources, but both are economically powerful.

The reason the US is so powerful is because it's been fortunate enough to have (mostly) honest government, abundant natural resources, and a culture that valued hard work and private property.


  

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hal9000Tue Feb-19-02 05:10 AM
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#74. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 71)
Tue Feb-19-02 06:25 AM

          

What you've just written, demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of how the IMF operates.

The IMF has prescribed the same medicine for troubled third world economies for two decades now: Tighten the money supply to raise internal interest rates to whatever heights are needed to stabilize the value of the local currency. Increase tax collections and reduce government spending dramatically. Sell off public enterprises to the private sector. Remove restrictions on the inflow and outflow of international capital as well as restrictions on what foreign businesses and banks are allowed to buy, own, and operate.

Only when governments sign this structural adjustment agreement does the IMF agree to lend enough to prevent default on international loans that are about to come due and otherwise would be unpayable. Arrange a restructuring of the country debt among private international lenders that includes a pledge of new loans.

The predictable consequences have always been disastrous. Tight monetary policy and skyrocketing interest rates not only stop productive investment, stampeding savings into short-run financial investment instead of long-term productive investment, it keeps many businesses from getting the kind of month-to-month loans needed to continue even ordinary operations. This fosters unemployment and drops in production and therefore income. Fiscal austerity raising taxes and reducing government spending further depresses aggregate demand, also leading to reductions in output and increases in unemployment. Likewise, if any of the government spending eliminated was actually improving people's lives, then reductions in those programs eliminates those benefits. Privatization of public utilities, transport, and banks is always accompanied by layoffs. Whether productivity and efficiency is improved in the long run depends on how badly the public enterprises were run in the first place, and if private operation proves to be an improvement.

One of the most glaring inefficiencies of structural adjustment even on its own terms, has been that in its haste to reduce public sector budgets. The IMF has seldom taken the time to try and distinguish between poorly run and well run public enterprises. In its crusade to privatize, the IMF routinely lumps efficient public enterprises together with white elephants that do provide poor service to the public while paying bloated salaries to relatives and political supporters of ruling political parties. The IMF never considers the possibility that private replacement might be even worse.

Hasty removal of restrictions on international capital flows makes it easier for wealthy citizens and international investors to get their wealth out of the country, i.e., removal of capital controls facilitates capital flight, further reducing productive investment, production, income, and employment. Removing capital controls further exposes the local economy to the vicissitudes of global capital mobility, including the disease of contagion.

In Argentina's case the economic collapse is the latest failure of the one size-fits-all model that the United States tries to impose on developing countries.

The economic model that the United States exports, with the International Monetary Fund in the role of enforcer, works like this: Developing nations are supposed to open their economies wide to foreign investment, to allow their banks, public utilities, and anything else to be sold to the highest foreign bidder. They are to balance their budgets, restrict the role of government, discipline wages, and limit social outlays. All of this is intended to subject the local economy to global competitive discipline and attract foreign private capital.

It sounds plausible, but there are several problems. For one thing, foreign investments are notoriously subject to fads and whims. Several otherwise sound economies in East Asia got into severe difficulty in the late 1990s after following the American recipe. Too much foreign capital poured in, and when the bubble burst, it poured right out again. The IMF then came in to shoot the wounded.

Argentina followed the IMF model more faithfully than almost any other nation. Its economy was opened wide; its peso was pegged to the dollar. For a few years this sparked an investment boom as foreigners bought most of the country's banks, phone companies, gas, water, electricity, railroads, airlines, airports, postal service, even its subways.

As long as this money came in, there were enough dollars to keep plenty of pesos in circulation. But the dollar-peso deal led to an overvalued currency, which killed Argentine exports. And once there was little more to sell off, the dollars ceased coming in, which pulled money out of local circulation. As Argentina tanked, the IMF's austerity program pushed the economy further into collapse.

The United States and the IMF, is tilted to benefit investors often at the expense of ordinary people, particularly in the Third World. The countries that have had the highest growth rates, such as Korea and China are precisely those that have resisted much of the IMF model.

>Corporations can plow in all the cash they wish to
>candidates, but they still cannot vote. Only people vote. Do
>you honestly think corporations would ever support anybody
>but Republicans if it were that easy to control elections?

How do you think Kennedy got elected? He was a Democrat.

  

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AlTue Feb-19-02 07:05 AM
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#75. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 74)


  

          

Actually, Thailand perfectly illustrates the IMF and what they do, not Argentina.



  

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hal9000Tue Feb-19-02 07:49 AM
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#76. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to Al (Reply # 75)


          

You're right, which contributed to unprecedented pollution levels in Thailand.

Then the IMF moved to Indonesia and did the same thing, ruining their forest reserves.

  

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TrebuchetTue Feb-19-02 08:07 AM
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#77. "RE: IMF"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 76)
Tue Feb-19-02 08:12 AM

          

If it makes you feel any better, I've long thought both the IMF and World Bank should be abolished. This has been the general concensus amongst conservative economists for years. Trying to hand out capital to economies and/or governments who are not ready to deal with it is foolish and, as you've noted, often does more harm than good. Tribes are not nations, even though they're often treated as such.

The only thing you've really got wrong about the IMF is that you seem to think it operates like a "real" private bank. It does not, it's a government-backed toy of the UN. As such, unlike a private bank it has no accountability to stockholders, employees or members. The answer is always the same with governments: The problem can be fixed with more money.

Your primary mistake is assuming that this is some kind of sinister conspiracy to ruin Third World economies instead of what it really is, which is typical governmental inefficiency ruining everything it touches. No governmental entity has ever accomplished anything as efficiently as the private sector. You can't give people capitalism and success any more than you can give them freedom. It has to be earned. There are no shortcuts.

Your heart is in the right place. But the world is just not as sinister a place as you make it out to be.

Having said that, can we close this thread? I think it's way outlasted it's usefulness.

  

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hal9000Tue Feb-19-02 09:36 AM
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#79. "RE: IMF"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 77)


          

A meaningful discussion and exchange of ideas can never outlast it's usefulness. However, I agree that this thread should come to a close.

The issue with the IMF is not whether it operates as a private bank or not. The issue is for what purpose the IMF's funds are being used, which is to further increase the wealth of the corporate elite on tax payer's money at the expense of the poor. Never under estimate the extent of man's greed. And it's no conspriacy, it's being done right out in the open. It's only a conspiracy for those that don't understand the complexities and the true nature of the IMF's intent, power, greed and control. And brother, you and I pay for it, the same way we did with the S&L bailout. The IMF's accountability my friend, is with us.

I'd like you to know that I have learned from this discussion and as you know, I respect you. We can agree to disagree.


  

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AlTue Feb-19-02 09:28 AM
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#78. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 76)


  

          

The IMF invested in Thailand in 1997. The pollution levels in Thailand have been dropping since 1995. God forbid you should actually research your facts.

Indonesia (like the rest of SE Asia) has a problem with illegal logging. That is what is depleting the forest reserves of Indonesia, just as it has Thailand, and Malaysia. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IMF.



  

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AlMon Feb-18-02 07:54 PM
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#69. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 66)


  

          

I suggest you read Adam Smith and John Locke. You might learn something. If you can ignore your own prejudices in the area.



  

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nomad48Tue Feb-19-02 03:13 AM
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#73. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 0)


          

No one demonstrates his tech ignorance quite like Mr. Nader.

nomad48

  

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SidWed Feb-20-02 08:00 AM
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#80. "RE: Nader's Comments On Proposed MS Settlement"
In response to nomad48 (Reply # 73)


          

Right on, Nomad. Nader is a pitiful, aging (so am I, at 63), finger-pointer who never contributed anything positive to society. He was even a failure as a politian. Damn, here I go, I don't want to get involved in this thread. Just one last thought:

Hal, you shoulda been at my party the other night. Sonny will tell you that Nader woulda meant nadda and you would have spared all this abuse.

.
Onward & Upward !
Sid

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