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Josh NFri Jul-12-02 07:27 PM
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"OT - firearms question"


  

          

In reading through a Popular Mechanics mag the other day I ran across a Springfield Armory ad. Since I've had a hankering a pistol for quite some time, I decided to check them out.

I ran across their 5" .357 Sig Tactical XD and 4" .357 Sig Ported XD. Specs & options are pretty close on both of these. Size is my main attraction. (Smallish hands and I'm not fond of large handguns.) I like the 5" simply because longer = slightly better accuracy. I like the ported model, well, because it's ported.

Uses? Well, home defense is one and sport shooting is the other. I'd like to take a concealed handgun class just for the fun of it. Nope, don't plan on actually carrying it. Casca is always close enough!

Do you think that a woman (my wife, specifically) would be able to handle these guns? She's not an average strength woman. Hope that makes sense.

Anyone have any opinions on this company and/or handgun? Ever used any of their products or known someone who has? If I read the site correctly they have a lifetime warranty on all products, so that's a plus.

  

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SonnyFri Jul-12-02 07:44 PM
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#1. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

'Ont know much about guns 'cept they go bang. Wouldn't there a better choice for putting your PC out of it's misery like donating it to charity. Let's hold that anger down a bit.





  

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Backward BobFri Jul-12-02 09:25 PM
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#2. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


          

I have 357's running out my ears as revolvers, however as an automatic I do not like this caliber. I also do not like the 40 Cal.

Springfield is not a high end manafacturer but usually turns out reliable products.

I am an old Colt 45 man nut have an officer's model and a Gold Cup. But to conceal, it would probably be better to get the Glock, although I hate the plastic anything gun. I have never tried the Glock but those who have them usually love them and more and more law enforcement agencies are using them but usally a 40 Cal.

You wife should be able to handle a 45 glock and if you do not get the law enforcement model you still have more shots than the colt. I think most people agree, for short range stopping power the 45 is the go to caliber.







  

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Josh NFri Jul-12-02 09:41 PM
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#3. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Backward Bob (Reply # 2)


  

          

Something about the Glock's confused me. No external safety? How safe is that? Looking at their site, from what I could make of it, as long as nothing is on the trigger you're OK. All it takes to take the gun off safety is the trigger safety? How in the world does this make a gun safe. CG, maybe you could explain this to me.

  

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ruggedwbSat Jul-13-02 12:03 AM
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#4. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 3)


  

          

the firing pin on a glock will not fall into line untill you pull the trigger with a finger. see the little toggle on the trigger? thats your safety.

IMO i like the HK usp compact .45 those .357 sigs of yours are a hybred round. theyre a 9mm slug crimped in a .40 cal shell. theyre called .357 sig because the ballistics, FPS, and slug weight mimic a .357 mag round. because they are a bottle necked cartrige, theyre more prone to jaming, although the 1911 design is as reliable as you can get.

i find the hp superior to the glock, because the double recoil spring makes the gun only kick straight back. theres no muzzle rise. plus i feel more comfortable with a 1911 style external safety. plus the glock has a long trigger pull, and the hk is traditional double/single action with a de-cocker.

springfield makes good guns, especially the high end gold match stuff (all.45 tho) but for a great .45 1911 you really want to look at a wilson combat.

and for the worlds finest combat handun, you would like to look at a H&K usp compact in .45 cal. I agree with the guy above. i have a full sized hk in .40 cal, and its a waste. with the advanced recoil dampening, i should have gotten the .45. the compact i have is a 45 and i luv it (so does my wife).

i also have the original glock 17 (21 round clips and 18 rounders too) and a little baby glock 27. i promise u that a glock will not go off unless you pull the trigger.

and dont forget about revolvers. theyre more accurate, have smaller grips, and never ever jam. i know autos are faster, but one well placed .44 mag or .45 acp will always do the job

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crazyXgermanSun Jul-25-04 07:44 PM
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"RE: OT - firearms question"


  

          

actually, it's extremely safe. the absence of an external safety prevents the shooter from ever being accidentally not being able to shoot or from accidentally shooting, because he never has to think about whether the safety is on or off. more than one individual has lost its life due to such accidents.

the gun itself is safe because it can only be fired when you consciously pull the trigger. the trigger cannot be pulled backwards by accident, the firing pin cannot strike without the trigger being pulled, and the firing pin cannot fire when the gun is exposed to a shock such as drop or sharp impact.

glock explains it pretty well with diagrams on their web site:
trigger safety
firing pin safety
drop safety

it is a very ingenious design if you take a closer look at it and understand it.

the glock also has other advantages. for example, the angle of the grip to the barrel is much more ergonomic than any other gun and makes fast/ instinctive aiming very natural.

i strongly encourage you to give the glock a try, maybe rent one on the local range and fire a few hundred rounds. to dismiss it as a cheap plastic gun and call it unsafe is doing it great injustice.

to answer the other question, i have a glock 21 - .45 acp - that i take to the range on a more or less regular basis, and i try to get my wife to shoot it as well so she's familiar and comfortable with it.

lastly, why do we buy guns here in the US? because we can, because it gives us comfort, because it gives us the ability to defend our home and life if need be.

  

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CrunkSat Jul-13-02 02:06 AM
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#5. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

I held a glock in Counter-strike, I thought it was pretty good



  

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cascaSat Jul-13-02 02:55 AM
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#6. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

Good distinction between home defense and sport shooting. I always reccomend shotguns for those not willing to spend the time to remain accurate with a handgun, requires 100 rounds a week. The boys in black shoot 500 rounds a day, after a morning run and before live fire training, everyday while on activation.

Secondly, high caliber rounds travel fast, fast and are dangerous if you are not in a regular shooting routine. A shotgun for home.

As for sport, well Glocks are something special, shoots underwater and the latest models seem to be resistant to jamming with dirt and sand.

But if it floats your boat and you can hit what you aim at, then that is all that matters. Arguing guns is like arguing muscle cars of the sixities, everybody got a favorite, besides you can own several, I do.

Also with the right Glock models you can get an internal day pulse laser, my newest lust, along side the new gen NVG with infared.

The porting reduces recoil and provides accuracy, 5" is absolute minimum if you are shooting beyond 50 feet.


Under Construction

  

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npmclSat Jul-13-02 03:03 AM
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#7. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

As an innocent European can someone please explain to me this American fascination with and need to possess lethal weapons.

  

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PointmanSat Jul-13-02 03:39 AM
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#8. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 7)


          

Living out in the country here in Texas, it's just easier to prune your shade trees with a shotgun than fussing with ladders, saws, etc.
That pesky gopher, the one that's too smart for a trap, can be the center of attention of the next mini-safari.
As an oldtimer, you'll feel much more assured when some hooligan offers to pound you into putty.
From what I hear, a firearm can take all the fun out of raping helpless women.
What with most folks not wanting to get involved and deputy sheriffs sometimes several long minutes away, it's just prudent to keep some packaged protection handy.
Hell, you don't have to shoot anyone. A light pistol whipping will flood an erring heart with sincere contrition.

Y'all come by anytime, but try not to forget your manners.

Pointman

  

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LackosleepSat Jul-13-02 07:30 AM
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#9. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 7)


          

Because we can.

  

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npmclSat Jul-13-02 12:54 PM
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#11. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Lackosleep (Reply # 9)


  

          

"Because we can."

Because you can doesn't explain why you would want to.

  

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AlSun Jul-14-02 08:09 PM
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#20. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 11)


  

          

Just think of it as we never got used to the idea that we weren't supposed to have them...comes from not having lords and masters...




  

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cascaSat Jul-13-02 07:31 PM
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#12. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 7)


  

          

To insure we don't become peasants again without a fight! You see some of us here have not totally surrendered our personal responsibility.

You come for me, bring your lunch, we are going to dance for awhile.


Under Construction

  

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KirklandSat Jul-13-02 08:29 PM
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#13. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to casca (Reply # 12)


          

>To insure we don't become peasants again without a fight!
>You see some of us here have not totally surrendered our
>personal responsibility.
>
>You come for me, bring your lunch, we are going to dance for
>awhile.
___________________________________________________
We do guns 1) because we can 2) because we wan't to 3)because we can afford them.

But we don't do guns well, or very safely.

For every 100 firearms deaths in the US, almost 51 of them are... suicides!
For every 100 firearms deaths in the US, nearly 41 are persons killed by someone they know.
For every 100 firearms deaths in the US, only 3 of them are deaths caused by strangers.
For every 100 firearms deaths in the US, 1 of them are caused by "legal intervention" (law enforcement or civilians).
For every 100 firearms deaths in the US, nearly 2 of them are accidents.
We see then that the NRA's favorite bogeymen, the ubiquitouss "criminal," only accounts for fewer than 3 of every 100 firearms deaths in the US, while suicides and "acquaintance murder" accounts for nearly 92 of them!

More than 1500 American teens under the age of 20 commit suicide with firearms every year.
**A person, ready to go to bed, turns on the outside lights, lets out the Rottweilers then turns on the burglar alarm, secure in their mind they are somehow "protected" and "safe." But the person most likely to ever beat or perhaps kill them (especially with a firearm), is sleeping in the bed... right *next* to them. True enough, "criminals" do kill people, but it is usually their own race or kind they kill. Very seldom are "strangers" (people unknown to the "criminal), *EVER* harmed by criminals.

Even with all the above being true, as more and more of the formerly 288,000 (in numbers) federally licenced (FFL) gun dealers disappear (now down to under 35,000 nationwide) from the American scene, the cheap guns which were being sold by tens of thousands of so-called "kitchen table" dealers, also have dissappered from the streets of the US, precipitating the ongoing, six-year, double-digit reduction in the kinds of violewnt crimes usually committed with firearms.

But England, a place where previously only landowners (and their hired guns(x*) had guns, has never allowed their citizens to freely own firearms since, making your orginal question germane to Englishmen and others who cannot imagine doing what I can: go down to the local gun dealer, present my bonfides, pony up the cash and in less than an hour, walk out with my legally purchased, "Super-duper, 14 shot, .45 cal shoot-em up" pistol.
Essentially, your puzzllement is understandable, in that you can't experience what or why we Americans do (so many things). The real truth is: we do it (or them) merely because we can.
*x*Though fewer than 19,000 ppeople die every year from firearms trauma, we Americans, with malice of forethought, recklessly and brutally end the lives of more than 40,000 motorists in the US every year.
Why aren't you a little curious about that muderous habit, where people gleefully drink themselves into a stupor, then just as thoughtlessly, just as brutally, murder more than 22,000 of the 40,000 who die on our highways?
*x*Remember "The Sheriff of Nottingham" of "Robin Hood" fame?
In actually, he was a privateer/enforcer working for the local landowners, hired more to protect the land and landowners than to enforce civil or criminal laws.

  

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npmclSat Jul-13-02 10:44 PM
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#14. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Kirkland (Reply # 13)


  

          

Thanks for your interesting answer.

  

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JohnnySat Jul-13-02 11:21 PM
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#16. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Kirkland (Reply # 13)
Sat Jul-13-02 11:22 PM

  

          

For every opinion.........

SELF-DEFENSE & RIGHT-TO-CARRY

Survey research during the early 1990s by criminologist Gary Kleck found as many as 2.5 million protective uses of firearms each year in the U.S. "he best available evidence indicates that guns were used about three to five times as often for defensive purposes as for criminal purposes," Kleck writes. Analyzing National Crime Victimization Survey data, he found "robbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other methods of self-protection or those who did not resist at all." (Targeting Guns, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997)

Most protective firearm uses do not involve discharge of a firearm. In only 1% of protective uses are criminals wounded and in only 0.1% are criminals killed.

A Dept. of Justice survey found that 40% of felons chose not to commit at least some crimes for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted having been scared off or shot at by armed victims. (James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous, Aldine de Gruyter, 1986)

Thirty-three states now have Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws providing for law-abiding citizens to carry firearms for protection against criminals. Twenty-three states have adopted RTC laws in the last 15 years. Half of Americans, including 60% of handgun owners, live in RTC states.

Professor John R. Lott, Jr., and David B. Mustard, in the most comprehensive study to date of RTC laws' effectiveness concluded, "When state concealed-handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell about 8 percent, rapes fell by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults fell by 7 percent. . . . Will allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns save lives? The answer is yes, it will." (Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998)

RTC states have lower violent crime rates on average: 22% lower total violent crime, 28% lower murder, 38% lower robbery, and 17% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (FBI) People who carry legally are by far more law-abiding than the rest of the public. In Florida, for example, only a fraction of 1% of carry licenses have been revoked because of gun-related crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State)


GENERAL INFORMATION

Privately owned firearms in the U.S.: More than 200 million, including 65-70 million handguns

Gun owners in the U.S.: 60-65 million; 30-35 million own handguns

American households that have firearms: Approx. 45%

Hunters nationwide: 14 million (16 yrs. of age and older)

NRA Members: 4 million

NRA State Associations and Local Clubs: 10,000

NRA Target Shooting Tournaments annually: 10,000

NRA Certified Instructors: 38,000


Copyright 2001, National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action
This may be reproduced. It may not be reproduced for commercial purposes.


Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

  

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golouisSun Jul-14-02 08:16 PM
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#21. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Johnny (Reply # 16)


          

I am a European. I visited the USA once (2 years ago) but didn't realise so many people had guns.

Guns are for killing.

I don't want to visit such a dangerous place again.

Louis

  

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AlSun Jul-14-02 08:24 PM
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#22. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to golouis (Reply # 21)


  

          

Knives are for killing, too. Do you have any in your home?



  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:12 AM
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#24. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to golouis (Reply # 21)


  

          

"I don't want to visit such a dangerous place again."

Good, now that I know that I can unload and put away my pistols.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:10 AM
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#23. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Kirkland (Reply # 13)


  

          

Hmm, didn't I just correct you on these "facts" the last time I came through here? Amazing you didn't bother to read them or check up on them. Not so amazing is that you once again spewed the same BS but once again failed to back it up with any official statistics sites.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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KirklandMon Jul-15-02 10:29 AM
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#43. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 23)


          

>Hmm, didn't I just correct you on these "facts" the last
>time I came through here? Amazing you didn't bother to read
>them or check up on them. Not so amazing is that you once
>again spewed the same BS but once again failed to back it up
>with any official statistics sites.

Your "corrections" are merly NRA hack journalism, whereas what I posted can be found in DOJ, CDC and national crime statistics and other governmental and medical sites.
You (and others who swallow the NRA line whole) either 1) don't read well 2) can't negotiate web sites that don't have NRA approval and 3) beleive anything that makes "macho" a virtue, even the stupidity that makes wanting to carry guns on your person a virtue.
**51% of the people who die from firearms trauma are ~suicides~. If you ~dare~ locate and read the statistics on suicides for yourself (without getting permission from the NRA), the more likely you'd want to know if the other things in post #16 are as factual as the well published suicide statistics.
But unless you, on your own, without any directions from me, (so you can't say that sites to which I point youare bogus or wrong) find, read and understand the widely published statistics on suicides in the US, and how many people die from firearms suicide here, you'll always believe that ranting, raving NRA BS.

As you know, or maybe have forgotten, I own five handguns, including two .45 caliber "Brown" guns and three powerful centerfire revolvers. I own a SAFN and FAL assault rifle, a 7mm Remingtom Magnum sporter, a Remington 870 Wingmaster and a 36" Marlin Goose Gun.
At the same time, I am ~not~ for the registration of firearms, at least not in states that don't now require registration. Nor am I for more, stricter or confisticatory gun laws.

Keeping all that in mind, I ~AM~ for sanity in gun ownership. I am in strong favor of denying gun ownership to "Criminals", including peole with assault or domestic battery convictions, (people who beat their mates and other kin).

Pushing or endorsing CCW is wrong and serves no good purpose. Don't give me that self-serving Kleck claptrap either, the fantasy that guns on persons or in the home make the home or person "safer."
Such NRA foolishness simply ignores the ongoing deadly facts:
people who live with or around guns are the ones who die from those guns, 98% of which are already in the hands of the NRA's famous "law abiding citizens", people who, with malice of forethought, frequently blow their, or their mate's brains, (or both), all over the frigging ceilings ang walls.

I live in a SMSA of nearly 500,000. In the 1990s, only two "criminals" were killed by armed citizens (in or around their homes), both of the "Criminal" being ~neighbor~ kids breaking into nearby property, one of the pieces of "property" being a camper (not the pickup the camper was mounted on). On the other hand, 4 home owners, (2 of them armed), died in struggles in their home, both of them disarmed then murdered,; one of them strangled, the other beaten to death with his own (malfuntioning) weapon. All the 4 deaths were by means other than firearms.
In the same time frame, 182 mates died from firearms trauma while 81 people committed suicide with firearms. As I previously noted, all you need to buy a firearm where I live is 1) a clean police record and 2) the money.


  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:09 PM
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#53. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Kirkland (Reply # 43)


  

          

My corrections of your BS was a link directly to the FBI. I would like to know how they fit into your NRA paranoia. So who's the one who can't read or click on a non-HCI pre-approved website?

The "facts" you are using are so twisted beyond belief that they no longer make any sense in the context you put them. The 43 deaths (and the correct quote is 43, not 41) deaths by family or friends or aquaintences, included suicides (86%).

Murders and other felons have family and friends to. The best answer isn't to not allow them to get a gun, but rather not to have anything to do with criminals even if they are family members.

If you'd dare read about suicides you learn that they will do it no matter what the weapon available is. This has also been pointed out to you many many times and backed up with statistics from reliable govt statistic sites from around the globe.

All I know is you have claimed to own firearms. I also know that in any topic that involves guns you spew out lies about guns whether or not it goes along with the topic.

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cascaMon Jul-15-02 01:50 AM
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#29. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Kirkland (Reply # 13)


  

          

England is England, and after reviewing the British occupation of India, I see there was equal levels of violence, so what is your point?

Under Construction

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:27 AM
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#27. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 7)


  

          

Don't act all innocent with me. We have enough Europeans show up at the hunting/shooting forum I go to. Ignorant about firearms I could believe judging by the questions we get asked there. But certainly no more innocent than anyone else.

Why I like firearms is science. Turn a crude explosion into an accurate tool.

I like the test of controlling my body. If I breath right, time my heart beat, squeeze the trigger I get 3 holes in one a hundred yards away. If I don't control my body the holes are all over the target.

I like to eat good meat. There's not much other red meat that is healthier than deer meat. (None that I know of.)

Self-defense. I have a right to defend myself. I have a duty to defend myself.

Mechanics. I like mechanical objects. The first thing I do when I get a new firearm is take it apart and see what makes it tick. I tweak it here and there. Once I get it shooting the best it can I get a new firearm.

I hope that answers your question. I think it did a lot better of a job than the other answers you got or the propaganda/lies that Kirkland gave.

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npmclMon Jul-15-02 02:22 AM
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#32. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 27)


  

          

Thanks Myk for your straight-forward reply, it did answer my question. As far as I know I've never met anyone who owns or has ever owned a firearm so the question was quite "innocent", in fact I've never seen a real gun.

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 12:54 PM
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#51. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 32)


  

          

I was just joking about the "innocent" . But I am shocked at how many shooters we get at that hunting forum from England and Australia. And they come up with some pretty nice guns too. I was really shocked that England allowed one guy to have a 22-250 varmint rifle.
But there is quite a bit of difference between the countries judging by the technical questions they ask.

I guess because Americans are so free to have firearms that we also have the information about them readily available where we know what twist rates and powder burn rates do. We know that the 22-250 varmint rifle the owner was quite satisfied with getting 1MOA with was capable of much better groups. It's like it's second nature because we asked the questions when we were kids.

Or maybe we're are obsessed with guns and their workings. Maybe it's just the type of people I know and am releated to, but we are a nation of tinkerers.
At a military game forum an Israeli soldier (Israel allows guns like the US) thought his M4 was zeroed at 25m. It took a few American soldiers to explain that it was really zeroed for 300m and why that also meant 25m was on target.

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premauxSat Jul-13-02 11:51 AM
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#10. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


          

For what it is worth: Browning Hi-Power 9mm. My favorite. Fairly small in comparison to the 45, and 14+ shot capacity, (depending on the clip you buy). Plus it "FEELS GOOD . Get the hardcrome model though, (low maint.), and adjustable low-profile sights.

Premaux

  

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anthonySSat Jul-13-02 10:59 PM
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#15. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to premaux (Reply # 10)


          

I agree with Alex. I own 3 Glocks and would never even think about carrying any other gun. Why?- for many of the reasons Alex mentioned. I have a Glock 22 (full-size .40), Glock 27 (sub-compact .40), and a Glock 19 (compact 9mm). These guns are light, accurate, durable, and easy to carry.


http://cyclingcaptured.com

  

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ablibSun Jul-14-02 03:34 AM
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#17. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to anthonyS (Reply # 15)


  

          

I'm against guns!!

Visit the Basement

  

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rhbowlerSun Jul-14-02 04:48 AM
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#18. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 17)


  

          

Then don't get one.


RussH






  

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cascaMon Jul-15-02 01:58 AM
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#30. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 17)


  

          

You can be against guns, that is your right and I'll support you. However, I am against Nuclear weapons, war, violence, rape, incest, etc, etc, etc, but since God won't protect my physical body and waiting on the police to arrive is less than a perfect defense mechanism I am forced to apply the golden rule plus 10%. You see it is more blessed to give than receive, and I want to be blessed when dealing with the scum of the world.

If God would prevent these things from falling into fantical hands I would gladly lay my sword down, but last time I did that I got robbed at gunpoint.

Fool me once, same on you! Fool me twice same on me!

Under Construction

  

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doctormidnightMon Jul-15-02 02:15 AM
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#31. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 17)


  

          

I'm against ever pissing Anthony off !!

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 10:39 AM
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#44. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 17)


          

Ablid, Being against guns will be a good defense when the guy that breaks in your house and points one at your pea brain.......

  

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doctormidnightTue Jul-16-02 07:12 AM
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#67. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to anthonyS (Reply # 15)


  

          

After reading a lot of these posts, and doing some research on my own, I am seriously considering purchasing a Glock. They seem like well made firearms. The only problem is this whole university housing thing, which means I'm not allowed to keep a firearm in the apartment. Kinda sucks, given that crime, especially rape and in-home assaults) are skyrocketing.

  

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MykTue Jul-16-02 12:00 PM
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#70. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 67)


  

          

I wouldn't trade my Glock for anything. Except another pre-ban Glock.

I've found that people either love them or hate them. With most people loving them.

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old dudeSun Jul-14-02 05:33 AM
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#19. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)
Sun Jul-14-02 05:35 AM

          

A good , inexpensive pistol would be the old 6" police special. My choice was a .357 mag. Combat Masterpiece. Wadcutters would blast out of that sucker and punch a 3/8 inch hole in about anything. Damn thing would break your wrist if you have a wimpy grip.

There's newer stuff out there, the glocks and all.....

The combat was a man's weapon.....armor piercing stuff, penetrate an engine block if you load your own.....

  

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PointmanMon Jul-15-02 01:17 AM
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#26. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to old dude (Reply # 19)


          

Old Dude, your post has brought back fond memories. Do you remember the late Skeeter Skelton, a former border patrol agent and sheriff who use to write for Shooting Times? He had a (mythical) friend by the name of Johnson, who invented the .45 Jug pistol cartridge.

Johnson would take a .357 case and neck it UP to accept a .45 slug which was then seated atop a compressed load of a fast burning pistol powder such as Bullseye or Unique.

I never got to try that one, but I was wondering, from one ol’ reloader to another, if you’d ever gotten around to doing any work with that particular cartridge?


Pointman

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:37 AM
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#28. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 26)


  

          

Necking up? How do you load it into a cylinder? Either the rim won't be on anything or the case won't have any support or both. Did he use some type of sleeve? I didn't know Skeeter was dead.

I've been toying with the idea of making a 22-06 but I bet the barrel life would be too short and thus too costly. But I wouldn't doubt if you could break 5000fps with it. That would make for a long range varminter.

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PointmanMon Jul-15-02 02:56 AM
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#36. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 28)


          

>Necking up? How do you load it into a cylinder? Either the rim won't be on anything or the case won't have any support or both. Did he use some type of sleeve?

LOL! Well, chambering rounds of that wonderful old cartridge are fairly challenging for a novice.

BTW, real pistoleers don't shoot "compressed loads of Bullseye or Unique". Well, maybe just one. Don’t worry about seating those primers to depth; that first shot will do that and much much more for you.

>I didn't know Skeeter was dead.

Lord, I thought the gun magazines at my barbershop were old.

Pointman

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 06:50 AM
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#39. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 28)


          

We had the well known RCBS company right there in town. All the reloading I ever did was wad couuters for my old six shooter. They did all the other stuff people do with weapons over there and I wished now I had paid more attention.

I was in the Butte County Sheriff's reserve search and rescue up there in the hills and along the Feather River. We had jeeps and horseback.

I sat a jeep somewhat better than a horse though.
Member of the NRA then and we could get Army surplus weapons at a discount for the Sherriff's dept.

Lotta guys hunted stuff up there and I guess I never quite fit into the whole killing scene. I liked shooting but, after the first jack rabbit I never could kill anything again.

  

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cascaMon Jul-15-02 02:33 AM
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#33. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 26)


  

          

Rather than go to that much trouble get the latest in small hand cannons, I held one about 10 days ago and darn near swapped my teenager for it. A 480 Ruger! A 480 rifle cartridge in a 8 or 10" package, five rounds.

Perfect for those situations where a gut shot Rhino leaps out of the bush and charges!

Actually, I can see this as insurance against the intruder wearing a vest, once he is blown back thru the wall I doubt that he will spring to his feet.

The cost per round was about 3.00 and like I told the family it would make a great birthday present and defense against moles, Graboides (from the movie Tremors, I just loved Burts rec room) and other ground varmits.

Under Construction

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 10:43 AM
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#45. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to casca (Reply # 33)


          

Casca, remember I'm going back to the early sixties...we did have smokeless powder but little more.....yuk, yuk,. }> }>

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:17 AM
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#25. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

BTW, longer doesn't equal better accuracy. That is a fallacy. Longer equals a longer sight radius which means your aim will be less off than with a short sight radius. Longer will get you more feet per second coming out of the barrel because more of the powder burns inside the barrel. But a longer barrel is no more accurate than a short one.

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cascaMon Jul-15-02 02:37 AM
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#34. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 25)


  

          

In science terms, perhaps, but you forget that the barrle length has some effects on velocity, plus there is the human variable. Longer barrel and weight can be an advantage.

Besides, it's not easy to pistol whip somebody with a snub nose, might as well use a sap or brass knucles.

Under Construction

  

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AlMon Jul-15-02 03:33 AM
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#37. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 25)


  

          

Try to get accuracy out of a 1/4 inch barrel....

}>

Length of barrel affects accuracy in so far as the barrel is long enough to stabilize the round... beyond that, barrel length is about sight radius and velocity...



  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:07 PM
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#52. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Al (Reply # 37)


  

          



It's like Casca said, science terms. You'd need a machine rest to prove it.
Hmm, Sierra doesn't use a quarter inch barrel in their FAQ about longer barrels. I wonder if I should call their technical service.

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crazyXgermanSun Jul-25-04 07:44 PM
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"RE: OT - firearms question"


  

          

myk, you're correct that a longer barrel gives you more velocity due to the bullet being exposed longer to the explosion of the gun powder.

but a longer barrel also means more accuracy for the reason that the bullet is being led by the grooves inside the barrel longer, giving the bullet much more stability out of a longer barrel, resulting in significantly improved accuracy.

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 09:59 PM
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#60. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to crazyXgerman (Reply # 0)
Mon Jul-15-02 10:00 PM

  

          

Only if you go to the extreme that Al gave. A 2" barrel will be no more accurate than a 12" barrel. But that 12" sight radius will let the shooter be able to be more accurate.

I never knew this and thought the same way until I started reloading and was reading the FAQ's of the company who makes my bullets.

Had I known this at the time I would have a Glock 19 instead of the 17.

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cascaMon Jul-15-02 10:21 PM
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#62. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 60)


  

          

Well, you can shoot as well with a 2" barrel as an 5,6,8 or 10" barrel. I did not really fully subscribe to it until I saw a marksman on American Shooter shoot a 2" snub nose at a distance that I cannot exactly recall, however I could not make the shot he did. I could equal it with a rifle, but this guy is amazing. I forget his name at the moment, but he makes shots that I don't even dream about.

The difference is training. So often you hear about police actions where 36 plus rounds are fired and suspect hit once or twice. And officers practice often, see them all the time at the ranges.

Naval Seal compentcy is what most people expect out of ordinary police officesr and you can't be that good without the daily practice. Professional Handgun accuracy is dependent on daily practice much as a Pro Baseball player needs daily workouts even though they are at the top of their game.

So, it boils down to that age old saying about what is gun control? Hitting what you aim at!

I just find short barrel guns less accurate for me and bad for my remaining hearing (good medical reason to have a silencer simple class III license) while a large bore is more intimidating for the perp.

Under Construction

  

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AlTue Jul-16-02 03:22 AM
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#63. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to casca (Reply # 62)


  

          

Myk is correct, Alex. As long as the barrel is long enough to stabilize the round, additional length will not affect accuracy in and of itself.

However, the two other issues related to barrel length are important. First, short barrels often result in incomplete ignition of the powder prior to the round leaving the barrel, resulting in less than ideal accuracy as well as reduced velocity. Even more important for most shooters is sight radius. The longer the distance between the front and rear sight, the more accurate the alignment must be, and the less variation will be introduced by the shooter (hopefully).



  

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PointmanTue Jul-16-02 06:59 AM
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#66. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Al (Reply # 63)


          

I've owned some short hand guns that seemed to be much more accurate than they should have been.

Are you saying that the closeness of the front and rear sights to each other produces a sharper overall sight picture thereby making it easier for the eye to align?



Pointman

  

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MykTue Jul-16-02 11:48 AM
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#69. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 66)


  

          

If you have point A and point B 3 feet apart they will be more precisely aligned by the average person than if point A and point B are 3 inches apart.

The sight picture will actually be less sharp because of the distance difference. Which is why people with glasses (like me) don't do that great with open sighted rifles. It's hard to line up your bifocals so you can see the rear sight, the front blade and the target all in focus
I don't have the problem with pistol lengths but I'm thinking about going with a red dot system for my shotgun upland game hunting.

What Casca said about noise is very true. My .380 is unbelievably loud for such a small round. After messing up and not putting on my muffs with my hunting length .357 I wouldn't want to shoot a snubby in that caliber without hearing protection.

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PointmanTue Jul-16-02 08:20 PM
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#71. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 69)


          

>If you have point A and point B 3 feet apart they will be more precisely aligned by the average person than if point A and point B are 3 inches apart.

That's what I always thought, but it sounded like Al was saying that since points A and B were so close to being in the same focal plane, it presented a sharper image thus making it easier to be more precise. Being an instinctive shooter, I've always concentrated on the target instead of how precisely I aligned the sights. It was just understood that a consistant and firm grip of the weapon was required.

LOL! A freight train forced me to become an instinctive shooter. Yeah, I know, a ten yr. old should know better than rest his favorite long gun on a rail to go 'chunk' rocks in a creek. That train made the tip of the barrel of my BB gun unbelievably flat, thus eliminating the front sight. Well, dad did that when he sawed off 4" of the barrel. That forced me to become an instinctive shooter and focus on the target. Never could figure out why they put bead sights on shotguns. With that many pellets, how can you miss?

Pointman

  

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AlWed Jul-17-02 03:21 AM
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#72. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Pointman (Reply # 71)


  

          

No, what I am saying is that a longer sight radius is better.

By the way, the point of focus when shooting any iron sight weapon should be the front sight. Not the target, not the rear sight.



  

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PointmanWed Jul-17-02 04:43 AM
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#73. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Al (Reply # 72)


          

>By the way, the point of focus when shooting any iron sight weapon should be the front sight. Not the target, not the rear sight.

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that if you stare at a target hard enough, the sights will magically align themselves.


Pointman

  

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MykWed Jul-17-02 12:44 PM
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#74. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Al (Reply # 72)


  

          

Even trying that with a rifle, the rear sight and the target are way too out of focus for me. I can't line up the rear and the blade and tell where I'm aiming on the target.
It works OK for pistol radius and range though.

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PointmanWed Jul-17-02 05:57 PM
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#75. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 74)


          

>Even trying that with a rifle, the rear sight and the target are way too out of focus for me. I can't line up the rear and the blade and tell where I'm aiming on the target.

In thinking back, I remember watching the trajectory of the BB and making adjustments accordingly. Working without a front sight apparently forced me to be consistent with how I held that air rifle. When I got to basic training, the instructors stressed being consistent about where you positioned your head against the rifle stock. The position of the aperture sight seemed to take care of itself when you did that.

Having both the target and front sight in focus at the same time may require a fairly loooong rifle. Just try to let the front sight be the last thing in sharp focus before the bang.

I still concentrate on the target. They tend to walk off without you noticing it if you don't. Only now, the sight is a little 2.5 power scope. Hey, my peepers are getting a little tired too.

Pointman

  

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whipatMon Jul-15-02 02:42 AM
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#35. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

This is for Kirkland


Maybe you should read a little more about teen suicide, factor in drugs and alcohol. How many teens committed suicide free of the influence of either one?

  

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ablibMon Jul-15-02 06:09 AM
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#38. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to whipat (Reply # 35)


  

          

I'm sick of all you pro NRA firearm owners with your lame statistics and gutless reasoning to own guns. You all use the same reasons to get a gun. "to protect yourselves because the police are too goddamn slow!!" wah wah wah cry me a river. You need to have more respect for law enforcement than that. Give them some credit, they have very very difficult jobs out there on the streets and the fact that there are 70 some million handguns in the US doesn't help them at all. There are better and more intelligent ways to protect yourself than to use guns. But instead of fighting over this like we have been for years why can't we just get along and respect each others opinions. For all of you who are pro-firearm, guns kill, you can't get around that or deny it. And for all of you who are anti-firearm, please respect the fact that gun owners have the contitutional right to own a firearm. The constitution is what makes america great. Not this constant bickering.

Visit the Basement

  

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rhbowlerMon Jul-15-02 06:54 AM
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#40. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


  

          

I have guns because i LIKE them. I shoot competition Trap, and combat handgun. As an American it's my right. It's also your right to NOT have them if you so desire, but to say we should all get along, with the attitude you display in your post is ludicrous. And, by the way, i have NEVER seen or heard of a gun killing anyone. PEOPLE with guns kill people, people with cars kill even more, so cry your own river with your bullshit.


RussH






  

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ablibMon Jul-15-02 08:09 PM
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#56. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 40)


  

          

Yeah I must be full of shit huh? This is what scares me about gun owners. They're right, They're never wrong. And their holding a gun. I just tried to put a little sense into this thread by saying that it's not worth the bickering because there is no right and no wrong when it comes to guns, so why fight about it? Why fight about all the statitstics that you don't know are 100% accurate. I just think it's kinda naive to believe everything you read. I just think using a gun for self-defense is a little much. Look at the guy that put the glass on his fence for self protection. He got sued for that. For using glass. Imagine what would of happend if he used a gun. The same thing happend in my county(that I used to live in) burglar broke in house, owner shot guy in leg, owner gets sued for medical payments for the leg. The burglars defense, he entered the wrong house by mistake. Homeowner at fault. Now if the home-owner would of used some common sense instead of just getting the gun out he wouldn't of had to lose that fight in court. My only argument is that guns used for self protection are totally uneccessary. But if you hunt, or just like to shoot around because you like the weapon hey that's cool for I have shot guns all my life. But these are my opinions, why automatically shoot me down for my opinions and beliefs? No pun intended. Constant arguing is what is deteriorating the world. And by you saying that I'm all bullshit just because I'm stating my opinions isn't fair. And the fact that you're holding the gun is what makes me and law-enforcement worry.

Visit the Basement

  

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AlTue Jul-16-02 03:27 AM
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#64. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 56)


  

          

Ever been mugged? Raped? Assaulted with a baseball bat?

I have a friend, British, who was assaulted with a baseball bat in London. He's crippled for life and lives from a wheelchair. His ability to have children was taken from him. Suggest to him that using a gun in self-defense is a "bit much".



  

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rhbowlerTue Jul-16-02 06:30 AM
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#65. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to rhbowler (Reply # 40)


  

          

Your right, YOU shouldn't have a gun for self defense, because with your confrontational attitude, someone will take it away from you and shoot your sorry ass.


RussH






  

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greyeyezzMon Jul-15-02 08:18 AM
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#41. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


          

Only a gutless person is too gutless to defend him/herself.

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 11:02 AM
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#48. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to greyeyezz (Reply # 41)


          

A gutless person can always beg not to be hurt......

  

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doctormidnightMon Jul-15-02 08:27 AM
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#42. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


  

          

"There are better and more intelligent ways to protect yourself than to use guns."


Thats why I also have a blue belt in T.K.D., a red belt in Shotikan (American style), a very large bat with nails driven through it, and a wife that has a black belt in attitude

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 11:09 AM
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#49. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 42)


          

You probably have something there. I would expect most events of a home invasion or chance encounter on the street wouldn't really allow one to produce a weapon from a locked drawer somewhere in another room or from a locked glove compartment.

More power to you....

plus your training most likely will keep you aware of your suroundings which is the biggest failing most people are guilty of.....

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 11:18 AM
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#50. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 42)


          

I would lose the bat with the nails and just lay in a regular bat along with a glove and some other sporting goods stuff to set the scene as an innocent athletic stash of things...otherwise you'll have to answer for a deadly weapon.

Like the guy in San Francisce years ago who put broken glass along the top of his concrete fence wall and the perp who broke into his house sued and collected for hurting himself escaping over the wall..... (That's real, it's documented)

  

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old dudeMon Jul-15-02 10:48 AM
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#47. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


          

After nearly forty years of marriage, bickering has become a way of life.

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 01:30 PM
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#54. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


  

          

Saying guns kill is like saying guns target shoot or guns hunt. People do those things and they use guns to do them.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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anthonySMon Jul-15-02 07:58 PM
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#55. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


          

Cars kill also you fuc%#&*@ idiot. Does that mean the government should ban cars as well? How about jetliners? They can easily be transformed in to a guided missle. Obviously you are naive to the ways of the world and live a sheltered life. The Police are only around to write a report after a crime happens.

The government can ban guns totally, however, the criminals will always still have them. I'd rather face a scumbag on an even playing field than waiting around for the cops to come write a report after I have been shot, stabbed, robbed, or carjacked.


http://cyclingcaptured.com

  

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ablibMon Jul-15-02 08:12 PM
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#57. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to anthonyS (Reply # 55)
Mon Jul-15-02 08:13 PM

  

          

Guns are used more for the intent to kill than a car or a jet is. any idiot can see that.

Visit the Basement

  

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anthonySMon Jul-15-02 09:09 PM
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#59. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to ablib (Reply # 57)


          

Tell that to BinLaden, fool.


http://cyclingcaptured.com

  

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KirklandMon Jul-15-02 10:48 AM
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#46. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to whipat (Reply # 35)


          

> This is for Kirkland
>
>
> Maybe you should read a little more about teen suicide,
>factor in drugs and alcohol. How many teens committed
>suicide free of the influence of either one?

What the primary catlyst is that makes a suicide commit the act does ~not~ obviate the death.
**I ~have~ read and been trained extensively about suicides (as a drug and now, grief councelor).
Factually, most suicides suffer from depression, and aren't, at the moment they attempt or complete the act, even living on the same planet we do.

  

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Josh NMon Jul-15-02 08:49 PM
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#58. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

GOOD NIGHT! Thanks for all of the opinions.

and a wife that has a black belt in attitude This is what makes me feel safe around my own wife!!!

I'll check out the Glocks and probably a revolver or two as well. I have decided to go with a different caliber though. A nice .44 or .45 sounds real good.

As of now I have a .270 rifle (deer) and a 12 gauge shotgun (migritory birds, home defense). Also have a bow, but that's not much use for HD unless your in some Arnold movie.

With the size of the shotgun (28" barrel) it's a tad slow for loading and aiming. That's what prompted this quesion in the first place. With all my weapons I'm (IMHO) very proficient. (Try hunting sometime without shaking, and still hitting a 3" or smaller area with either of these weapons. It takes a LOT of practice.) I don't plan on being different with a handgun. I have shot several handguns of varrying calibers, so I'm not foreign to them. The bigger ones where always just a bit much for the piano hands I inherited from my Mom.

I plan on taking my wife when I purchase one, just to make sure that it feels right to her. She's no stranger to guns either, with growing up around them and shooting at times. Renting several and both of us trying them sounds good.

Thanks all!

  

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MykMon Jul-15-02 10:14 PM
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#61. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 58)


  

          

If you're worried about your wife and recoil I wouldn't get a .45. My nephew has those as his service arms and he's making the switch to 9mm. He's no small guy either. If she can handle a .45 that would be great. But I would make sure first.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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JohnnyTue Jul-16-02 07:27 AM
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#68. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Myk (Reply # 61)


  

          

As the bumper sticker on my truck reads:
"Guns cause crime like flies cause garbage."

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

  

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crazyXgermanSun Jul-25-04 07:44 PM
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#76. "RE: OT - firearms question"
In response to Josh N (Reply # 0)


  

          

my personal opinion: go with a glock.

a) comes in many different calibers so you can pick the one that's right for you, e.g. the 9x19 or .380 for less recoil and easier handling

b) comes in many different sizes so you can pick the one that's right for you, e.g. the glock 19 or 19c for smaller size, good handling with smaller hands, and concealed carrying

c) is much lighter than most guns due to its polymer frame

d) glocks also come with optional compensators (ported) for even better handling and recoil reduction. look for the c after the model number

e) glocks are extremely safe due to their multiple built-in safeties, and there is no external safety to get confused about

f) glocks are always single-action, none of that first shot dual-action then single-action stuff. every shot feels the same

g) they're affordable

check it out: http://www.glock.com/pistols.htm

sorry if this sounds like a glock commercial, but i'm extremely happy with my glock, and i know several other people who are too, including cops.

  

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