dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
256 mb rdram p.c.800
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

good evening, would like to know whats the best way as far as turning what off, and leaving what on, to prevent static electricity from frying my mother board when i open my case to attempt my memory upgrade. i know there are several versions, which makes it confusing.
thanks in advance bill:-)

Turn everything OFF when doing hardware upgrades.

To combat static electrictiy, touch either the frame or the side of the power supply to ground yourself. Then take the chips out of the antistatic bag and plug 'em in.

"To combat static electrictiy, touch either the frame or the side of the power supply to ground yourself."

Just make sure the computer is grounded. Turn off the surge strip/UPS and the ground will still be good.

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

thanks for the input, i'll leave everything plugged in as is , and make sure everything is turned off including the u.p.s.for a ground, and i'll also use a wrist strap for extra protection. if thats it?
well, thank you. if not, whats missing?. thanks again, bill.;-)

Bill, I don't know what type of power supply you have, but many of the newer supplys are now ATX, as opposed to the standard ATs.

That means that the ATX depends on a logic circuit on the motherboard to turn it on. Once you flip the power switch on the ATX to "on", (some ATXs now don't even have a power switch!), it sends a 5V 720MA current to the mobo through pin 9 on the connector. That is for WOL (Wake Up On LAN). There is a power-on jumper on the motherboard that connects to the pushbutton located on the front of the case. When the pushbutton is pressed, it sends a signal to the mobo which in turn notifies the ATX to turn on the full power.

In my motherboard, there is a small green light on the board itself that stays on permanently AS LONG AS THE COMPUTER IS PLUGGED IN, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE POWER BUTTON IS ON OR NOT.

That means that if you are tinkering around, you can accidentally short/cause damage a number of ways because there may be a trickle of electricity still active and you may not be aware of it!

Bottom line.... be sure to unplug your unit, and use a grounding strap and you will be fine.:-)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

thanks ranchhand, the way my system is set up unplugging the c.p.u.from the back of the unit would be much easier than from the u.p.s. would that be okay? thanks again bill.:-)

Billybob,
That green LED on the motherboard that stays on after you shut down should go off when you shut off the power switch on the back of the power supply. You shouldn't have to unplug it from the wall. At least that's the way my Asus works.

Yeah, just make sure that any live electrical source (direct house line, battery backup units, etc.) is directly disconnected before popping the case, and you will be fine. Considering the $$ I put into my equipment, I would rather be absolutely sure so I just "pull da' plug".

I had one class where the instructor said to "just leave the unit plugged in, and the ground prong on the power plug will ground any static; Well, he was wrong!

ranchhand

No, he was right. Turn off the power to the computer either at the power supply, the UPS, or the surge suppressor, and the ground circuit will remain intact. That way touching the metal case will discharge any static on your body to ground, and wrist straps are not needed. If the power supply lacks a rear panel switch, use the UPS or surge strip switch, and anyone who is not using one or the other of those is an idiot anyway.

ERM....I am not using any UPS or surge protector....but my ATX PS have a on/off switch



PCExpert

Erm, get a UPS or at least a surge protector. You can get a fair UPS for the same price as a game.

I assume that because you "would rather be absolutely sure so I just "pull da' plug"" that you use a wrist strap.
What are you using on the computer for ground if you pull the plug? By pulling the plug you may be grounded with the strap but now the computer is not. You put yourself in the exact same boat where you still need to keep in contact with the case to keep it grounded.

Ground is constant whether the switch on the strip is on or not.

In that case, ground would be relative and refer to the level that you and the computer would be. If you're grounded to the case, there wouldn't be any potential difference to cause a discharge.

Why are you saying he was wrong? The ground pin carries continuity all the way through and is not part of the switched circuit.....

Here's an additional tidbit of info for your personal knowledge reserve. If system power is not shut off at the power supply, surge protector, or UPS, you can inadvertently turn on a system by plugging in a PCI card.

Be careful!

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

dell manual says that i may after all have to unplug the unit from the rear to free up the power supply to rotate it up and away to gain access to the memory rimms, bottom line is, i may have no choice but to unplug anyway if my hands are to big to access the rimm banks. according to some who posted i'll lose my ground. and from others i'll be okay. i guess i'll just have to play it by ear and hope for the best. thanks to all. sincerly bill. ;-)

Use your wrist strap and do the same thing the other direction. This time instead of keeping in contact with the case to ground yourself, keep in contact with the case to ground the computer. Or you could also run a wire from the wrist strap to the case.

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

so just click alligator clip to case and let the wrist strap hang? and that way i'm grounding the computor, right?

thanks again bill.;-)

NO, You have to WEAR the wrist strap!

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

got it finally i hope,

shutting down the p.c power, and the power through the u.p.s, not unpluging anything, then the computor is grounded,but make sure you touch the side of the case to disapate any static electricity, no strap needed,... unpluging the power from the u.p.s. you would need the strap clipped to the unpainted side of the unit to ground the unit, the other wrapped around your wrist. that way the unit is grounded right? if so, please let me know and thanks to all, if not
please tell me were i'm wrong. bill.:-)

The issue is to ground YOU. The computer case is always the ground reference for the computer. It will be earth ground or circuit ground, depending on if it is connected to the ground pin of the electrical supply or not. As long as your body is at the same electrical potential as the computer case, you will not present a static danger to the components. I don't know how to make it more clear than that.

Maybe the easiest way to explain this is to tell the proper way to do it.

Contrary to what Shelly said, the issue is to have everything on the same ground (earth).

If two things are grounded to the same thing they don't pass electricity between them, they both pass it to the ground. The real way to do this is to have your wrist strap that plugs into your static pad which plugs into your ground.

If you are plugged into the wall and the computer is plugged into the wall, you are both on the same ground (earth).

If you are not plugged into the wall but your computer is, you are not on the same ground. Touching the case puts you on the same circuit as your computer ground. You to case to ground, mobo to case to ground.

Likewise, if you are plugged into the wall but the computer is not, you are not on the same ground. And likewise, touching the case puts you both on the same circuit. You to ground, mobo to case to you to ground.

When you and the case are on the same ground no electricity will pass between you and the motherboard.

If you don't have a strap and the computer is plugged into a ground, periodically touch the case to relieve any static that you may build up while moving around.

So wear your wrist strap and touch the case before messing around in it. Since the computer is not moving around you won't have to worry much about it building up static. You are the most important item to keep grounded because you are the one most likely to build up a discharge.

(edit)I forgot one other option which serlv covered below. Neither you or the computer is grounded to earth. You touch the case and the ground circuit is, you to case, mobo to case. Using that method I would stay in constant contact with the case because no electricity build up is going away, it's just not passing between you and the motherboard.(/edit)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

thanks myk.:-)

"Contrary to what Shelly said, the issue is to have everything on the same ground (earth)."

And where did you get your engineering degree Myk? What I said was correct. The chassis always serves as a ground reference, whether it is connected to earth ground or not. The circuit doesn't care if it's earthed. The ground pin of an outlet is connected directly to the chassis (case), but the circuit will work exactly the same if not connected to a ground. In that situation the case itself serves as ground because it is the common reference point for the electronics. In fact the motherboard will work just the same if it is not even mounted in a case. Then the ground plane of the printed circuit board will serve as ground.

Do you think the space station can't have any electronic working on board because NASA forgot to run a ground wire up from the planet?

If the motherboard is hooked to an ungrounded case it is as good as being ungrounded when a human comes along who is in contact with earth ground, or any other ground for that matter.

"In that situation the case itself serves as ground because it is the common reference point for the electronics", "The circuit doesn't care if it's earthed."

And when you come along grounded to earth that common reference point is no longer common. It cares when an uncommon ground comes along that is earthed. The earth ground will be the on that takes the build up.

"Do you think the space station can't have any electronic working on board because NASA forgot to run a ground wire up from the planet?"

Read my final edited in option to cover situations where there is no earth ground. Both objects (you and the electronics) need to be with common ground, not one grounded to earth and the other grounded elsewhere.

This is a basic grade school science experiment. It doesn't take a degree to understand.
A line of people hold hands (common ground circuit). One on the end builds up static. Someone comes to the opposite end (non common ground) and gets zapped. The ones in between the electric maker and the new ground did not get zapped because they were on common ground.

If you want to take what you remember from getting your degree and put it in practice. Cut the ground prong off an appliance, open it and put a hot wire against it's case. Then tell me that an electronic items case is the only ground it needs when you add a human ground to the equation. Do you think that no discharge will pass between you in that situation because the case is the ground for the appliance?

http://www.zilog.com/docs/ez80/wp0001.pdf

Page 4, "The best way to avoid ESD damage is to keep ICs at the same potential as their
surroundings. The logical reference potential is ESD ground. The first and most
important rule in avoiding ESD damage is to keep ICs and everything that come in
close proximity to them at ESD ground potential. There are four supplementary
rules that support this first rule:"

"Any person handling the ICs should be grounded with either a wrist strap or ESD-
protective footwear used in conjunction with a conductive or static-dissipative floor
or floor mat."

Page 5, "The work surface for device handling,processing,testing,and so on,should be
made of static-dissipative material and connected to ESD ground"

Look at the picture on page 5, the floor mat and the work surface are to share a common ground.

Myk, you have much to learn about electronics, and your argument is nonsense.

The article you quote reiterates exactly what I said. Everything should be at the same potential as the ground reference of the circuit, including the technician. The ground reference of the circuit may, or may not be at earth potential, that is of no importance. True earth potential is nearly impossible to attain in a shop environment. The only time your body is likely be at true earth potential is when they bury you, and then only if you are in the water table without a coffin.

We deal with more static sensitive components in a single day than you will encounter in a lifetime. We have never lost a single component to static discharge.

I spent a good part of last night reading about ESD's.

I think the main disagreement is your terminology. "Same potential" vs "common ground". The average person is going to understand "common ground". We are saying the same thing in that aspect.

BUT, when you say the most important thing is to ground YOU, you did not say to where. Every place I went (including that picture) has earth as the eventual common ground. Even basic wrist straps have a banana plug which can be put into a ground socket. Better anti-static kits (which are all that I had looked into before last night) have a box that is hooked to earth ground and everything you are working on plugs into it, strap, component jumper, work pad.
Although, below you did say where to hook yourself to achieve a common ground. Obviously had you said that above I wouldn't have disagreed.
Places I went about computer building said that if the computer must be unplugged that you should set up an earth ground.

You may think my argument is nonsense but it seems there are more places that agree with it than one person saying it's nonsense.
No place that I came across made a statement like, "We deal with more static sensitive components in a single day than you will encounter in a lifetime. We have never lost a single component to static discharge."
That is the nonsense because you don't know when the damage you cause will show up. ESD's don't always cause instant failure.

If you are convinced that my arguement is complete nonsense, go ahead and grab that hot wire and walk around a bit. Eventually you will find something that puts you in contact with an earth ground which will then put you in permenant contact with true earth ground.
It would be more difficult to set up an environment on the planet insulated from all contact with earth than it would be to go with the obvious common ground, earth. Which is why places on the planet go to the earth for their grounds.

I really figured you would come back with something like my second paragraph, not that your need to be right would have you saying that the average home tinkerer can isolate themselves from earth and that all the building codes pertaining to grounds are ridiculous because the grounds won't be in contact with "true earth potential" or that the persons they are trying to protect are not going to be in that contact until they are dead and buried, "and then only if you are in the water table without a coffin".

Whole books have been written on the subject of grounding. Ground is an elusive concept. I suggest you do more learning and less of this arguing based on a lack of any real knowledge of the subject. any wrist strap has one million ohms of resistance built in to avoid your being anywhere near ground, that is a legal safety requirement.

Ground is a relative term. If you think you need 100% true earth ground in the water table to be in contact with earth ground, the hell with books, I suggest you touch an electric fence. Rubber soles, a horse saddle, a motorcycle, not much totally insulates you from earth.

Your replies are becoming ridiculous, there is no point in continuing this discussion. You're in way over your head.

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

thanks shelly.

Heheh. I did that and had to return a brand new motherboard one time.
Luckily they replaced it, though it was my fault.

Scott

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

and, so whats your input thats it?:(

Well, I'll tell ya, doing that goof has made me sure I turn off the power on the back.

There are often times times when I'm doing deeper work on a computer that it is not plugged into a UPS. I've disconnected it and the box is physically in another room. Then i just yank the plug. But I am hyperaware to ground myself on the case before I touch anything inside. I do it often and it has become secondnature.

Scott

And if all else fails,turn on the sprinkling system.

I have read this thread 3 times and am as confused as a person can get! There are those who will call me 'an idiot'. There are others who will not 'respond to my posts again'. For the first time ever, I am going to open my case and put in more RAM. Not sure what is going on with this forum, but I am very aware of the static electricity alert. Just don't understand it clearly. I will definitely research A LOT because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Anyone that is careful should be able (under competent instructions) to snap a small piece out and put another in. Call me stupid if you want to, but, it seems that people I have gotten great tips from are confused on this one. I am appealing to Alex for some straitforward info on this. Thank you.

No need to be shy. What don't you understand? This may help.

http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/electricity1.html

Thank you so much Nightlyreader. A very good article, in depth, which is what I needed.

BTW, doesn't surprise me Shelly wrote it, lol. Thanks Shelly. :)

Im wonering if an electrical outlet withought power could be rigged up.....so you would have a tradtional wall outlite that is grounded but not connection to power at all. So you could plug your PC into it and be sure that no power could get through but yet it is grounded. I would think that this could be done and would probably be a good idea for a PC shop or for somebody who works on PC's a lot. I usually do what Shelly recomends and just keep the PC plugged into a surge protector but turn the thing off, but I sometimes get a bit nervous that the thing will fail to disconnect propery and I get the bajeeesus shocked out of me. Straps are something I have never tried either, I just keep in contact with the case.

Garbru

There is nothing in a PC that can even give you a shock. Nothing over 12 volts DC, and that isn't enough to overcome skin resistance

>There is nothing in a PC that can even give you a shock.
>Nothing over 12 volts DC, and that isn't enough to overcome
>skin resistance


AS long as some of you energetic people keep your cotton-pickin fingers out of the power supply internals. }>

How about leaving the system plugged in, but using a modified power cord. Just cut the 120v prongs off one or both ends and leave the ground prong intact. That way there is continuity between the wall outlet to the case and to you (if you use a wrist stat or touch/case method.;-)

I might as well try to answer your question since it seems to be a rule now. I don't want to try and think about all this ground stuff, so I'll just tell you what I do, and if it's wrong I have a feeling someone will tell me.

If I'm getting in the case, I turn the case power switch off and the UPS switch off. I leave it plugged it. Like Scott, I've developed the habit of constantly touching the power supply to discharge any static that may have built up on/in my body.

If I have to unplug it, I use a wrist strap. I get a length of zip cord and clamp the alligator to one end and attach the other end to a wall socket screw. Now I'm discharging any buildup static to the same ground as before, just a different path. Forget about all this ground stuff - if the box is plugged in and you touch the power supply, it's the same thing as touching that screw on the wall socket, but the wrist strap just makes it more convenient, so you're sort of always touching it. The point is to give it somewhere to go other than the mobo.

You do not want to ground to the electrical system. Ground yourself only to the computer case. That way you are always at the same potential as the circuit board whether its plugged in or not.

There is no need to be continuously in contact with ground. Just touch it before you start working and again if you walk away and return. A static charge must be generated, just standing or sitting there working will not generate any significant charge. It takes several thousand volts of static charge to do any damage, and those levels are not easy to accumulate. In very low humidity conditions, avoid wearing nylon clothing, it is an excellent static generator.

This whole business about static damage is highly overblown. I don't even own a wrist strap, never have. Just take sensible precautions and you will neve have a problem.

Shelly, I've been reading, and reading, and reading this. You said it in your last post.

One thing not mentioned is DO NOT EVER try to make your own haphazard wrist strap, with a direct wire connection. Commercial wrist straps have a LARGE value resistor in them that will bleed off static, but not let you, the user, get zapped if the wrist strap should somehow become energized.


This can happen in the case of some fault in wiring. I sure as HECK would not stake my life on being connected to a "ground."


As Shelly said, the case of the computer is all that really matters. You, and the computer want to be the same potential, whether you are standing in the local swimming pool or in outer space at the time.

Absolutely correct, Delar. Wrist straps and static mats have one megohm of resistance in series to prevent a high enough current flow to ground to pose a safety hazard. Obviously, since they are a million ohms above ground, your body is nowhere near earth potential.

>You do not want to ground to the electrical system. Ground
>yourself only to the computer case. That way you are always
>at the same potential as the circuit board whether its
>plugged in or not.
>
>There is no need to be continuously in contact with ground.
>Just touch it before you start working and again if you walk
>away and return. A static charge must be generated, just
>standing or sitting there working will not generate any
>significant charge. It takes several thousand volts of
>static charge to do any damage, and those levels are not
>easy to accumulate. In very low humidity conditions, avoid
>wearing nylon clothing, it is an excellent static generator.
>
>This whole business about static damage is highly overblown.
> I don't even own a wrist strap, never have. Just take
>sensible precautions and you will neve have a problem.

Oh wow, I always just wired my wrist strap to the 13 amp house socket (ring main) earth & trusted that this was sufficient, thankfully I always touch the cae anyway, looks like I need to rewire my strap to a croc clip!

Thanks for that info! ie: common earth = the CASE not the mains.

Okay, that makes sense. Mine's never unplugged anyway, but the few times it is, being in a dry environment with an artificial fiber carpet is worrisome - I get zapped constantly. I take it that the often repeated "fact" that a static charge lower than you can feel is enough to do damage is incorrect?

Before everybody has a ground electrode implanted in their body and hooks themselves up to the ground in the wall receptcle, HAVE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM CHECKED to make sure that the system is wired properly.

WOW!

I sure am glad we finally got that settled.

Yeah,Static Electricity,era 1950--new ford with plastic seat covers-drive wife to work- slide over to kiss goodbye-nose to nose sparks fly.Got so we had to grab hands before the slide over.

Sure miss that Ford,the spark too.:-)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

since i started this thread, i must say, this has been a learning experience i'll never forget. WOW! :-) :-) :-)

Heh heh, welcome to PC911!

Well since you have a Dell and most of the advice givers don't I'll tell you what I did. I put more memory into my Dell Dimension 8100 and as you have surmised the power supply must be swung up and out of the way for access so all the tips to leave it plugged in are pointless. Just shut everything down, unplug the power cord from the back of the PC, remove your case, attach your wrist strap to your wrist and the clip to bare metal of the case somewhere that it's not in your way, swing the power supply up and out of the way using the release mechanism and do what you have to do. Make sure when you put the power supply back in position that all your wiring is safe and away from sharp edges.

I don't even have a wrist strap and accomplished it by simply making sure one hand or arm touched the metal case the whole time I was in there. :-)

I do actually use a strap simply because I can have several PC's & components strewn around (on antistatic bags etc) & don't want to pick something up & fry it, if it's not in a case & on my desk then there is a small chance something nasty may occur! How do i tell someonev that I fried their components? So i use a strap simply so i can say that i took all neccessary precautions even though it's not strictly neccessary.

I'm not suggesting that wrist straps are useless and would use one if I had one however for the limited amount of times I get into the case I think I can use my head and stay out of trouble. ;-)

I think you should keep your head out of the case, use your hands. ;)

Another good tip. This site is just awesome. :P :P :D :D

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

right on spezi, thanks:-) :-)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

spezi, one question, did you have to tilt the case over on it side to gain access? thanks much bill.:):-)

certainly made it easier and needless to mention clean that baby out real good before you do anything in there. Dust bunnies are not a good mix with new parts.

Does yours have RDRAM or?

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

got rdram, i believe that all the 8100's have that type of ram , the only thing is i went to the p.c.800 instead of the p.c.600. so i'm going from 128 rdram p.c.600 to 256 rdram p.c. 800 should be a good boost. if i use that compressed air to clean out the dust bunnies, is'nt that kinda moving it from one place to another, do it in sperts? never used it before. thanks bill.:-)

Use a natural bristle brush & a vacuum cleaner, using compressed air just blows dust into inaccesible places & can fry components as dust can attract a static charge, or be conductive & short a component.

Ditto, vacuum is a better idea. As you have an 8100 also you will need to take out the continuity sticks that reside where the RDRAM is going to be installed.

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

yes thats right, but only if i want to keep the 2 64's that came with the machine which i don't , because they are p.c.600, and i'm installing p.c.800, and if i keep the 2 64's p.c 600's that came with the machine to equal 384mb'yes i'll have 384mb's but at the p.c.600 speed which i don't want, putting in 800's with the 600's the machine will revert back to the lower speed 600. i did my home work on this ,believe me.if you want the 2 64 p.c.600 that came with the machine, be my guest, i have no use for them. bill.
;-)

Sounds like you did your homework. :D

I've got four sticks of 128MB PC800 in mine so that would be a step back but thanks. ;-)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
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128 mbs
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
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zone alarm 2.6 362


thanks spezi, i guess my replies aren't so ridiculous after all, as some so called experts on this forum think;-)

Now there's a good question actually now that I think about it Bill.

Which configuration would give a guy better performance in the long run a 256MB PC800 RDRAM setup or a 384MB PC600 RDRAM setup?

Any experts care to comment?

I'm almost wondering if these P4 machines as fast as they are would show much difference between PC600 and PC800. Would be interesting to find out.

Never as fast as an Athlon! costs more too}>

Overclocked Athlon 1700XP @ 1595Mhz

Yeah but I can take a P4 2Ghz chip and overclock it safely by 25% without modification to the cooling setup. :P

Can you do that? :o

Also FWIW as far as real world performance goes SiSoft Sandra doesn't mean squat according to people I consider professionals in the field. ;-)

dell pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
256 mb rdram p.c.800.
n.a.v.2001
explorer 5.5
road runner broadband
zone alarm 2.6 362

thats a great question, why don't you post it, i'm sure there are some p.c. 600, and p.c. 800, real experts on this forum who know also about dell 8100's and rdram. ;-)

Think I will. :-)