Existing:                               Alternative (also existing):

XP1800					Compaq S3000Z
Athlon XP1800+				XP2600+ (thoroughbred-b)
ECS K7S5A (usb 1.1)			FIC AM35 (usb 2.0 & 1394)
768MB SDRAM				512MB DDR (32MB shared)
NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS 32MB		S3 ProSavageDDR 32MB (onboard)

Onboard audio				Onboard audio
Onboard LAN				Onboard LAN

WDC 80GB 7200				Maxtor 40GB 5400
Maxtor 80GB 5400			Quantum 60GB 7200

CDRW					CD
CD

Evercase Case				Compaq Case
Enhance 340W PS				250W PS

XPSP1					XPSP1

Two systems. I haven't really used the Compaq that much & really haven't "put it through it's paces". But in my limited time with it, it seems no faster - or even slower then the XP1800.


1). Have I just not explored it enough, or is the MB/HD/video limiting its possibilities.


What I am looking to do is to upgrade disk (space) & cpu (speed). I am still going to use IDE drives, though will probably get a 160GB or so, 8MB cache, 7200.


2). If the Compaq's setup is limiting me, would a swap of CPU's between the two systems & disk upgrade (& usb 2.0 card) be a viable alternative (maybe needing a BIOS update?) to building a new system. The K7S5A also supports DDR memory & I would probably use a stick of 512MB DDR rather then the existing SDRAM.


I have no problems with ... Case is fine ... PS is fine ... GeForce2 GTS is fine ... Audio & LAN, fine ... CDRW fine...


3). If I did go with a new system, what suggestions do you have on MB, CPU and video. I am looking for above all, reliability.


On a new system, I would want video to be least equivalent to my existing GF2GTS.


4). If I did go with a board with integrated video - either ... UniChrome or GeForce4 or ... would that meet the above condition.

4.5) If I went with a seperate video card, would something along the lines of an Radeon 7000 or GeForce4 MX 440 meet my requirements. And if so, which of those two cards would be better - or alternatives.


ATX or microATX MB would not matter, though I would prefer ATX (for no real reason). Also 3 memory slots over two. Any AGP should be ok (unless I used integrated), PCI slots are not really a concern.


Thoughts.

The onboard video and shared memory is slowing you down. That Savage video is not good either.

Thanks Darren ;) .

Next part. An inexpensive case.

Am I better going with a "cheap" case & "supposedly" good quality PS (Sparkle, though I know some do not care for the brand). Actually the case does not look bad. Tool less drive bays, CPU duct?

Or perhaps a different better (worse?) case?, though with a no-name PS that - in numbers at least - has better specs.

Some examples.

Athenatech case with 300W Sparkle PS - $39.usd
Sparkle PS: +3.3V@20A,+5V@30,+12V@13A

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=11-190-007&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=17-103-428&depa=0


or


DYNAPOWER ATX Black Mid-Tower Case with 430W Power Supply, Model "D58-BK" - $36.usd
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-138-026&depa=0
@-Power PS: +3.3V@28A,+5V@40,+12V@17A



More Sparkle specs.

If the Maxtor 40gb 5400 RPM is your boot drive on the Compaq, that will perceptibly slow things during start-up and when initially loading applications.

If I did go with a new system, what suggestions do you have on MB, CPU and video. I am looking for above all, reliability.

On a new system, I would want video to be least equivalent to my existing GF2GTS.

If I did go with a board with integrated video - either ... UniChrome or GeForce4 or ... would that meet the above condition.

I suggest a Shuttle MN31/N. I've recently assembled an inexpensive but very well performing system around that board and am very pleased with the results. I definitely prefer the GeForce4 MX over VIA’s Unichrome Graphics. To the best of my knowledge, the MN31/N is the only nForce2 IGP board with dual VGA ports. Other features include LAN, Soundstorm audio, two IEEE1394 headers (one Firewire port for each) and two auxiliary USB 2.0 headers in addition to one integrated and connected to two ports on the I/O panel. It’s designed for a total of six USB 2.0 ports.

The MN31/N is overall an excellent board. Based on my research and experience, it may be the best nForce2 IGP motherboard available.

Cases

Regarding cases, here are two mid-tower cases you might check out. The Chenbro Gaming Bomb line has been reviewed at several tech sites and at Maximum PC Magazine. Max PC really liked it. Click here for the black with silver trim model.

This next case is a pleasant surprise (if you like beige). The Compucase 6CN2 is quite nicely made with very good to excellent fit and finish.

I have the CompuCase 6K28 a micro-ATX product purchased at retail locally for my test system. The included Orion XP320 (300w) power supply works well with my Athlon 2400+ test system with a MSI KM2M Combo-L board with ProSavage integrated graphics. Most certainly not a gaming machine but it does what I need.

Compucase is part of HEC Group. Though not my preferred brand, I’ve used HEC power supplies in the past with good results. The Orion brand may be manufactured by HEC facilities.

If one were to consider making a micro-ATX game machine with any case, it would be wise to upgrade the power supply to at least 350 watts from a good manufacturer. That should provide extra reserve, especially if considering something like a Radeon 9800 Pro for video.

Video

If you're not into demanding fast-paced games, then the GeForce4 MX integrated graphics of the nForce2 IGP should be fine. If you think you might do some occasional gaming or want some future gaming capability, I suggest an ATI Radeon 9600. Variants are available from NewEgg for under US$100.

No games.

I found some relative comparisons of GF4GTS, GF4-440 that I'll try to post later. So it looks like a GF4-440 would be fine.


And would an integrated video system such as the Shuttle MN31N at $78 be preferable to say (Darren's) Shuttle AN35N at $55 with a standalone GeForce4 MX 440 video card ($30 after rebate, from dare I say, Tiger).


Anyone with thoughts on a GeForce4 MX 440 vs. a Radeon 7000.
Tiger GF4-440, $30 after rebate.
Radeon 7000, ~$30 flat.

The MN31/N's onboard video is the GeForce4 MX420. The MX440 has more than double the theoretical memory bandwidth. But I seriously doubt that will make a perceptible difference in your application.

One benefit of using the AN35-Ultra is that you can use PC3200 memory without worrying about possible problems with the onboard video of the MN31/N. Some nForce2 vendors such as Asus had major issues with that.

I think you should decide on either a micro-ATX or standard ATX case. If you go standard ATX, the AN-35 Ultra is a very attractive alternative.

I checked Tom's Hardware and a couple of other sites and find the Radeon 7000 nearly tied with the GeForce4MX series, with the GeForce4 MX possibly a bit faster. If you or your clients are considering using dual monitors, that would be a more important factor in Nvidia's favor. I found no dual-VGA port Radeon 7000 products in my limited browsing.

"micro-ATX or standard ATX case"


Good point. Never even crossed my mind. I sort of thought that an ATX case would also fit a micro-ATX MB, but not the other way around. It looks like only certain standard ATX cases will also fit a micro-ATX MB.

I mentioned it because if you decide on a µ-ATX case because of space considerations, the standard ATX option is ruled out.

Actually, any micro-ATX (µ-ATX) motherboard should fit a standard ATX case. I've not seen one that wouldn't but there may be cases that don't have the full set of standoff holes for the smaller form factor.

BTW, if decide to go micro-ATX, the MN31/N is the only K7 µ-ATX motherboard I've used that has a full set of mounting holes for secure motherboard support. This is important because it prevents excessive flexing when disconnecting and reconnecting cables and swapping RAM. Also, due to excellent board component layout, heatsink/fan installation was the easiest of any K7 platform motherboard I've encountered. And if you need Firewire support, the MN31/N is ready with internal headers and a supplied PCI slot insert with two ports. I don't believe the AN-35N Ultra has that last feature, though with all its extra PCI slots, adding more goodies won't be a problem.

One more thing to consider; if you buy the AN-35N Ultra, you will have the option of using a 400 FSB processor such as the XP 3200+. That is well and good performance-wise, but you will be getting near the AMD Athlon 64 in price. And that opens up an entirely new set of possibilities for hardware.

I assume you're actually looking at the most bang for the buck. For standard ATX, I believe the Shuttle AN-35N Ultra paired with a retail Athlon XP 2600+ from NewEgg is probably the best value and most flexible combination available. For µ-ATX, I'd substitute the MN31/N.

Wow. You mean the AN35N Ultra is only $55.00 now. I paid $69.00 three or four months ago. I guess because the nForce3 boards are taking their place. Anyway, It may be a cheap board, but it has been rock solid. I am very satisfied with the Nforce chipset based boards.

For those interested.

Various graphs from Tom's Hardware show the relative positionings of:

1. Geforce2 GTS vs GeForce4 MX 440
In all cases the 440 meets or exceeds my GTS, so the 440 should be fine.

2. GeForce4 MX 440 vs Radeon 7000/VE
In all cases the 440 exceeds the 7000, and so for the same $$, I'll go with the 440. It looks like the ATI 7500/9000 are a more compareable card to the 440.

Now it could be that the "VE" signifies "value edition", meaning lesser performance then a "non" VE, but that I don't know?

GTS/440 http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020418/vgacharts-01.html
440/7000 http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030120/vgacharts-02.html

Nice comparison between integrated graphics n-Force2 IGP GeForce4 and a stand alone GeForce4 MX440-8X card. (IGP in both single & dual mode).


MSI K7N2G-LISR (NVIDIA nForce2 IGP)
<http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=6&id=619&pg=7>

... The aim of these tests is to see how well the integrated GeForce4 MX graphics subsystem is able to perform. Hence we have three sets of results using the complete graphics card test suite; one result is from using single channel DDR, the second is using dual channel DDR. Lastly, we plugged in an MSI GeForce4 MX440-8x graphics card to compare a stand-alone solution with that of the built-in one. ...

... As seen from the previous page, dual channel DDR333 for a nForce2 using the integrated GeForce4 MX cores offers a great deal of performance over the single channel DDR333 when taxing it in games and such. We have stressed this fact many times over in our other nForce2 motherboard reviews that dual channel memory will not have any effect on nForce2 SPP boards. Finally, we are able to realize the advantage of NVIDIA implementing the DualDDR architecture.

Unfortunately, just like the original nForce that was not able to match a stand-alone GeForce2 MX graphics adapter, the nForce2 also could not deliver that standard of a normal GeForce4 MX440-8x graphics card. As explained on the previous page, the lesser memory bandwidth, lower GPU clock and chiefly the fault of the high latency required to access the main memory, the integrated GeForce4 MX could not rival the AGP card’s equivalent. However, the performance offered is leaps and bounds over any other desktop integrated graphics solution. ...

... Although the graphics subsystem is of the GeForce4 MX class, its performance is held back because of the use of system memory as frame buffer. Even when in dual channel memory mode that offers a very substantial improvement over single channel, it is still on average 40% slower than a true GeForce4 MX440-8x graphics card. Sounds like a big performance setback, but the actual results however indicate that the integrated GeForce4 MX core is capable of decent game performance on most current games when used with conservative quality settings. ...

Mark099 "FYI... if you are only buying 512MB of ram then make sure you buy 2x 256MB PC3200 (or higher) DIMMs."

Darren "Why 2 sticks of 256MB instead of 1 512MB? Because of the dual mode?"

Comments.


And then this:

nForce2: single-channel mode vs. dual-channel mode
<http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/nforce2-1vs2channels/>

In any combinations of resolutions and graphics settings with the external card the advantage of the dual-channel mode does not reach even 4%; the gain is maximum in the weak conditions, i.e. when it's possible to accelerate the processor/memory tandem. In all other aspects, two channels bring perfect scores for the integrated graphics, though it doesn't make IGP look adequate to the external GeForce4 MX 440.

Conclusion

First of all, the dual-channel mode of the nForce2 always makes a positive effect, and taking into account that this mode actually costs nothing (it needs two smaller memory modules instead of one big module), it's very possible to get the performance growth of 2-4%. ...

If you are going to use the integrated graphics of the nForce2-G/T chipset, you should definitely use the dual-channel mode since the speed drop might reach 10 to 70%. Also remember that it's said that the graphics core used on the nForce2-G corresponds to the GF4 MX440-8x chip, but actually, the lower frequencies of the chip in IGP and of the system memory bring much worse results in the 3D graphics tests.

Good article. But I believe nForce2 IGP uses MX420 graphics which may or not be the same core run at lower frequencies. Out of curiosity, I have submitted a question to Nvidia for clarification.

After several submissions to reach a live body, Nvidia Technical Support responded:

The Geforce4 MX IGP provides performance in between the Geforce4 MX 420 and 440 at AGP 8x mode. The feature set of the Geforce4 MX420 and 440 is the same, the only difference is the speeds in which they operate at.

CPU & Thermals:

2400 - 2500 - 2600 - Thoroughbred - Mobile - Barton
Pads - Artic Silver Ceramique Alumina - Radio Shack


I do not intend on doing any overclocking & if I did do it, it would only be to experiment - well unless it worked so well, that I just had to leave it that way.


I do have the XP2600+ I could pull from the Compaq & use?
Or should I purchase a different CPU.


Anytime you remove a CPU, you need to reapply thermal compounds.
Is that correct.

Suggestions/preferences on the thermal compounds/pads.

I do have the XP2600+ I could pull from the Compaq & use? Or should I purchase a different CPU.

Changing out processors is quite labor intensive so I would buy a different CPU and let the Compaq be happy. You can get an Athlon XP 2600+ retail pack with fan and warranty for $90 from NewEgg.

Anytime you remove a CPU, you need to reapply thermal
compounds. Is that correct?

For the Athlon XP, that is correct. For recent Intel systems by Dell, their interface material is reuseable providing it is undamaged.

Suggestions/preferences on the thermal compounds/pads.

I recommend the stock pad premounted on the heatsink/fan with the retail packages. I've found it to be fully satisfactory for my Athlon XP processors.

By the way, have you chosen a motherboard?

"motherboard?"


Almost certainly the Shuttle AN35N. I'm just waiting for the price to drop. (Yeah right ;-) ).


HOLD YOUR HORSES! They just knocked $1 Off! I'm in, $54.

The AN35N Ultra? Nice board. ;)

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=976446/search=AN35N/ut=cc1e3522f4a1846d

Well I don't exactly know yet. Just ordered it on Thursday. Suppose I should have it Wednesday or so. But based upon everything I've read, it should be.

And I've yet to decide on the CPU issue.

I'm thinking, if the Compaq is an under performing machine, why leave the existing CPU in it. Use that one in my new build, put an XP1800+ or so back in the Compaq, & I probably will not even notice a difference.

I think I may just pull the XP2600+ from the Compaq & get an XP1800+ or so to replace it?

That way I'll have two chances at a non-functioning system. The currently running Compaq, and also the one I'm building ;-) .

Plus it will give me some experience in CPU/heat sink installation (or did I mean to say destruction).

Here's what I ended up with (AR=after rebate(s) C=coupon T=tax) Total $400+T (usd) all delivered prices:

Athenatech case with 300W Sparkle PS
   newegg $38.
Shuttle AN35N Ultra 400 MB
   newegg $54.
Athlon XP2600+ Thoroughbred-B
   pilfered from above Compaq system, equivilant value ~$81.
Artic Silver Ceramique
   jab-tech $4.
Kingston 512MB DDR kvr333/512r PC2700 cl2.5 (1) dimm
   circuit city $45. AR+T
PNY GeForce4 MX 440 64MB 8x AGP video card
   tigerdirect $30. AR
160GB Maxtor HD 8MB/7200RPM IDE L01P160/6Y160P0
   office depot $70. C+T
120GB Western Digital HD 8MB/7200RPM IDE WD1200JBRTL
   circuit city $40. AR+T
Pacific Digital internal 4x DVD+-RW drive
   staples $38. AR+T
Sterling Fax/Modem model S20 v92
   staples $0. AR+T
3.5" Floppy drive
   pilfered from an old 'parts' system
Keyboard/Mouse
   too may freebies laying around $0. AR+T 
   

Now that's some great bargain hunting.

How's the collection of new parts workin' for ya?

Now, proper software installation procedure?

(1) WinXP-SP1
(1a) DirectX90b (needs to be installed prior to the latest Nvidia nForce drivers)
(2) Nvidia drivers (use latest rather then MB CD)
(3) GeForce drivers (use latest rather then Video CD)

The Nvidia drivers prompted to install ... an alternative driver for the ATA/IDE, was it? - I'll try to come up with the name. Supposedly it offered better performance, though with the possibility of incompatibilities. Any thoughts on that.


EDIT: Added step (1a).
EDIT2: This "alternate" driver is called, Nvidia IDE SW Driver


How to Tweak and Configure the nForce2 Chipset and ASUS A7N8X for Digital Audio Recording
<http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/nforce2_tweaks_03.htm>

The conclusion from (A) is that there are no major performance differences or any performance issues when comparing Nvidias 2.03 SW (™) IDE driver with Nvidia’s 2.03 standard IDE driver. In test (B) Nvidia’s SW driver results in slightly improved PCI read specs but the difference is not really significant. When comparing tests (A) and (B) it is concluded that the performance differences related to the combined motherboard-BIOS-physical hard disk configuration overshadows any IDE driver-related differences in PCI read/write specs.


More thoughts on SW.

Official IDE 4.12 Driver Feedback Thread
<http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?start=195&t=44965>


And ...

Guidelines for Installing Unified Driver Package (UDP)
<http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47050>

Regarding the Nvidia nForce2 chipset drivers, I would check Shuttle's website for their latest package rather than using the latest from Nvidia. The reason is because some customization has been done by some of the vendors. Asus is a prime example; I know from experience.

I guess I'm lucky. All my burners, rippers, etc. work great using the nvidia IDE SW Driver.

I'm using the alternate IDE drivers with no problems. I'm also using the unified chipset drivers from nvidia.

"How's the collection of new parts workin' for ya?"

Quite well.

Put CPU & memory in 'on the bench'. Installed MB in case. Then everything else - video, drives, cables, ... Everything went together easily - just some sweaty palms.

First boot, I immediately went in BIOS to check temperatures & voltages. All the numbers looked fine, so I just watched it for a while while the temps increased. After a number of minutes, I changed the time in the BIOS, saved & exit.

A message flashed on the screen, something about the bios & something about not turning the computer off or rebooting. (It flashed by quickly). So I waited. Thinking this hummer has 2MB BIOS & maybe it takes a bit of time to save?

Then the monitor turned orange (sleep). And nothing. Waited a bit more, still nothing. Hit reset. Nothing. Powered down & started back up, still orange.

Cleared the bios. Started up (thankfully), & went through the same procedure again & again.

This was bit disconcerting.

All during this time, the fans were running & everything seemed ok, just nothing happening.

So I started going through the bios settings. Saw where the video was defaulting to PCI. Figured it was not going to hurt to set the default to AGP. Figured at the most, I'd have to clear the bios. (I am now fairly well adapt at clearing the bios). Saved & exit. Finally I get video bios, then the computer bios. Seems AGP had to be set as default.

It was getting late & about time to leave work, but I figured I'd install XP. So I put the CD in, reboot, create a 32GB partition & let it go. Figured if it didn't finish by the time I was ready to leave, I just stop it & see if it picked up later. Well, the computer had just gone through one of its reboots & was just starting to reload into windows & I shutdown the computer (4-seconds at the switch). Got home, turned it on & it finished loading (happened to have been close to the end as it was), & I've been messing with it since.

Temps & Volts.

My temperatures have been (from what I'm used to) excellent.

All voltages seem consistant. MBProbe has a 'Vtt' setting (MBM calls it 'Core 1'), and a -5V (MBM does not show that at all) setting that it does not like, though I'm not sure what they are. This could just be that I need to set a divider or range so that MBProbe knows what is correct.

Temps, just browsing around, run about 36C, & I have seen a high of 49C while stressing the CPU. These numbers a LOW compared to my old Athlon 1800+ system.

Now (assuming the numbers are close to accurate) I don't know why such difference compared to my old system (with a high of 63C). Could be the case, better "breathing"? The case exhaust fan (old had none). More efficient CPU & or cpu cooler (AVC I think it was - whatever was stock on the Compaq vs. the retail AMD hs/fan on the old)? Use of the Artic Silver Ceramique thermal compound vs. AMD themal tape on old? And the case does have a "snorkle" that sits overtop the CPU & runs to the side of the case? The snorkle is passive (ie: just a piece of plastic - no fan), though there seems to be a fairly good flow of cool air being pulled in.

Case & PS.

A lot more quite then my old system. Most of what noise that I hear, I believe is from the case exhaust fan. Pretty sure the PS & CPU fans are relatively quite.

PS screws (to the case) were loose when I received it. It hadn't fallen or anything, but it certainly was not tightened down. Plenty of connectors including ATX12V & lengths are fine.

Case is a mixed bag. It is inexpensive, included the PS, & when I happened to have purchased it, included shipping (that is not now the case {pun}). Metal is a bit thin. Not super flimsy, but not solid either. My old case was an EverCase & it was solid.

MB tray. Not good. Came preinstalled with 5 standoffs. Included 3 additional snap-in metal standoffs. Missing two altogher. Don't see why they didn't just drill the board & allow you to use regular standoffs (and that is not an option) rather then the snap-ins.

Tool free. Good in concept. Not as good in execution. Just missing something in the quality department. Like to get a decent fit for the drives, had to bend in some tabs so it would hold tightly enough. My EverCase, also tool free, had a much better quality.

Computer runs nice & cool, as mentioned above, & may be due in part to the case design.

But then it is a case, & now that it is together I expect it will work just fine.

Thermal compound.

Went with the Artic Silver Ceramique.

For a few reasons. Able to purchase inexpensively - $4. And AFAIK, did not have to spread it (out on the CPU die). On a square die, a drop in the center, on a rectangular die, a single line longwise. Attach HS, two degree twist, & that's it.

And my temps are fine. And I have enough left over for a few more CPU's.

Thanks, guys!

My AN-35 Ultra is on the way. I'm sure this thread helped a lot more people than just therube and I. :7

In January last I upgraded my mobo etc.

I now have :-

A super brilliant Asus P4C800 E-Deluxe
Pentium 4 3gb 800 mhz
1.5gb corsair 400 PC3200 2 x matched pairs = 1pair of 512mg & 1 pair of 256 mb.
antec Truepower 480 watt PSU.

Hercules Radeon 9800 classic graphics card.

2 WDigital 120 Mb SATA hard drives - not set as Raid.
1 80gb WDigital IDE hard drive for Windows XP Pro OS.

Coolermaster PCU cooler.

If you go for it, use Artic Silver for the heatsink & CPU.

Using that setup, when I restore a ghost image, the speed is 1780mb / minute.

that is fast, the sytem in all facets is very fast, stable & reliable.

Also, and very important, the manual is very easy to read and understand.

And the board will do you for many years.

Gigabyte & MSI manuals are atrociously difficult to read & understand. A friend got a new MSI, we both tried to understand the manual, but he had to go onto forums to get the board setup.

I got a gigabyte mobo, two were faulty, so I had the dealer change it to the Asus, one of my better decisions.

I just cannot recommend this mobo strongly enough.
Just to say, Go and get one.